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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:35 am to
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4069 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:35 am to
quote:

Not sure how you can agree to any ceasefire if you are Ukraine while Putin is in power. All that will do is allow him to restock and attack at some other time. He's already shown his cards.



Just other illustrations

Russia was supposed to leave Transnistria by 2020 per the Kozak Memorandum. If something more recent surfaced extending that I did not see it

Or in the case of Georgia
quote:

A direct result of the war has been the increased and emboldened Russian military presence in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. While Russian armed forces were present in both regions before the outbreak of the war, in the capacity of peacekeeping forces since the civil wars in the 1990s, this was limited to 500 servicemen in South Ossetia (JPKF) and 1,600 in Abkhazia (CISPKF),[262] with the latter being expanded to over 2,000 in the months leading to the 2008 war.[263] With these mechanisms becoming obsolete after the 2008 war, the Russian recognition of the independence of both regions was a prerequisite to legitimise the post-war stay of Russian armed forces with the conclusion of "bilateral" military cooperation and integration agreements with the newly recognised "states".[264]

From 2009 onwards, the Russian Federation expanded existing military infrastructure in both regions. First the 4th Guards Military Base in South Ossetia[265] and the 7th Military Base in Abkhazia were established, formalised in an agreement valid for 49 years.[266] Then, Russia started the construction of border guard bases under the command of the Russian FSB Border Guard Service to demarcate and "protect the state border" of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In total more than 30 of these so called "militarized border guard bases"[267] have been constructed near the boundary line of both regions with Tbilisi controlled Georgia.[268][269] In each region an estimated 3,500 Russian military servicemen and around 1,500 FSB personnel are deployed.[270][271][272] Georgia considers the two regions occupied by Russia.

LINK

Posted by Chromdome35
NW Arkansas
Member since Nov 2010
7000 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:41 am to
The Sevastopol naval base is a big deal, Russia could always relocate the Black Sea fleet to the base at Novorossiysk.

Prior to the Russian takeover of Crimea, Ukraine leased the Sevastopol Naval base to Russia.
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 10:42 am
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
80866 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:52 am to
quote:

That's sounds good from a western POV, but I suspect it's a complete non-starter with Putin and Russia. They wouldnt even sit down knowing NATO membership for Ukraine is on the table.



Does it? What's the benefit of this from a western POV?
Posted by jfan244888
Soda City, SC
Member since Jul 2021
862 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:53 am to
Ukraine has received 4 Leopard 2s from Poland.

Wants to give 60 PT91s and train pilots on the F-16.

Polish PM tweet
Posted by IAmNERD
Member since May 2017
19962 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 10:57 am to
quote:

Does it? What's the benefit of this from a western POV?

Just speaking in general terms of getting the two sides to the negotiating table where the shooting stops. But Russia is never going to agree to that.
Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
23216 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 11:01 am to
quote:

Prior to the Russian takeover of Crimea, Ukraine leased the Sevastopol Naval base to Russia.


Correct. But if Russia loses it, it would be a disaster for them. IMO, it is the biggest reason Putin went into Crimea. That base is located there for a reason. It is the basis for them dominating the Black Sea. If Putin loses Crimea and that base, he is finished and he knows it.
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 11:04 am
Posted by Pettifogger
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Member since Feb 2012
80866 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 11:02 am to
quote:

Just speaking in general terms of getting the two sides to the negotiating table where the shooting stops. But Russia is never going to agree to that.



Personally I don't want Ukraine as a NATO liability which is what they'll be considering 2014/2022. It's not an anti-Ukraine sentiment, more of a "taking on an obligation that will disproportionately fall to the US and apparently without the benefit of installations" sentiment.

But I understand your position as a negotiation piece. I just think it ends up with the US as the biggest loser in that scenario and with both Ukraine/RUS being dissatisfied and likely discontented enough to see this flame up again with some regularity.
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 11:04 am
Posted by ImaObserver
Member since Aug 2019
2313 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 11:04 am to
quote:

Assuming Russia negotiates I'm good faith (huge if),

Medvedev says they will push back Poland's borders -
"Victory will be achieved. We all want it to happen as soon as possible. And that day will come," said Medvedev. He predicted that tough negotiations with Ukraine and the West would follow that would culminate in "some kind of agreement."
But he said that deal would lack what he called "fundamental agreements on real borders" and not amount to an over-arching European security pact, making it vital for Russia to extend its own borders now.
"That is why it is so important to achieve all the goals of the special military operation. To push back the borders that threaten our country as far as possible, even if they are the borders of Poland," said Medvedev.

LINK

Any agreement with Russia would only be a delaying action until they are ready to strike again to expand their domain. Russia today is like Rome in the days of their expansion as they feel that they should have eminent domain over all that they desire.
Posted by Chromdome35
NW Arkansas
Member since Nov 2010
7000 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 11:09 am to
Russia can't keep its own foot out of its mouth. Statements like this just work to harden western resolve. Support for Ukraine would be weaker if Russia would stop threatening the rest of Europe.
Posted by Burhead
Member since Dec 2014
2099 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 11:54 am to
quote:

@sentdefender U.S. Intelligence believes that Iran has now begun to supply Russia with Artillery and Tank Shells alongside the Drones and Missiles already being Transferred.
Posted by CitizenK
BR
Member since Aug 2019
10621 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:00 pm to
quote:

What about the Russian naval base in Sevastapol? Putin will never give that up.


They have moved out after being subject to attack from land drones/missiles from Ukraine.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:15 pm to
Timely given our discussion today:



Russia - Iran Update:



If true that seems Iran - Israel is heating up even more. However idk where Russia is getting the planes from if they’re so tied up in Ukraine. I would say idk why Iran would want Russian planes against Israel’s American planes, but it’s not like any country with them is going to give American planes to Iran either.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
18921 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:27 pm to
quote:

If so, why haven't they delivered the type weapons that can achieve this? The only western leaders that fully support this right now are Poland and the Baltic states. What do you think that Macron is talking about when he says France will never agree to humiliate Russia. He means Russia being kicked out of Crimea.


They are! That's what it means that the UK is sending Storm Shadow. British PM Sunak is also urging other countries to send longer-range weapons to Ukraine, and there is increasing movement and political pressure in DC for the US to send ATACMS. McConnell, for example, is pushing hard. He's in Finland today, touring Europe and pushing our allies to do more ... and continually criticizing Biden for not doing enough.
quote:

“It is not enough to do the right things; we need to do the right things at the right speed. The Biden administration and our allies must act more decisively to ensure that both our collective assistance to Ukraine and the investments we each make in our own militaries take place at the speed of relevance," he concluded, adding, "The road to peace lies in speedily surging Ukraine the tools they need to achieve victory as they define it."


Even GLSDB and JDAM-ER help, because they can degrade places such as Dzhankoi (the major railroad junction in Crimea). If Ukraine can reach the Azov Sea, then they can reach Kerch.

But Storm Shadow, if the UK provides sufficient quantity, provides all of that and then some. Perhaps you didn't see my prior posts on this weapon, but it has a massive warhead that will take out a span of the Kerch Bridge with one blow. It will take out every airfield in Crimea and any ship that docks in Sevastopol.

These weapons mean that Russia will be completely unable to supply Crimea. Any ship that tries to cross the Kerch Strait or dock at Sevastopol gets sunk. Russia could only get helicopters or small boats to Crimea.

And that means that Russian forces there run out of fuel almost immediately. Most of the traffic across the Kerch rail bridge was fuel tanks, and Russia is presumably making that up now through the rail ferries it's running.

So Russian forces in Crimea and southern Kherson run out of fuel before they run out of ammo and food. Fuel wasn't the issue in Russia's defense of the city of Kherson last September, because it was easy for Russia to run a big flexible pipe under the Dnipro River to get fuel across. Russia was eventually unable to hold Kherson City because of logistical constraints on ammo, but fuel wasn't a big problem, but it will be the instant and massive logistical problem in Crimea.

And this is what I think that so many of you are missing out on: before the supply of these long-range weapons, Ukraine might not have attempted a big offensive in the South this summer. They might have instead focused a big offensive in the northeast, trying to take Kreminna, Svatove, Staroblisk, and then putting pressure on Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

The supply of long-range weapons guarantees that Ukraine's big spring offensive will happen in in southern Ukraine. That's because these long-range weapons will degrade Russian logistics to its forces in the south, but more than that, it's because, if they are successful in driving south to the Azov Sea, Ukraine will cut off and ultimately take Crimea.

After takes out the Kerch Bridge, and rail ferries that are trying to dock at Kerch, all Russian airfields in Crimea, and any supply ship that tries to dock in Sevastopol, Russia will not be able to hold Crimea. Ukraine will take Crimea without some massive amphibious assault or crossing the Crimean mountains. They will take Crimea because Russian armored vehicles will have no fuel.

And this is why I just read several pages of speculation about what the end of the conflict looks like, and I don't think that y'all understand that the Ukrainian path to victory goes through Crimea.

So, there's no longer much likelihood of Ukraine recapturing most of its territory while Russia keeps Crimea. That's not the way that things are going to go. Either Russia is essentially going to win this war and keep most of what it's occupying now, or Ukraine is going to win by taking Crimea.

And once Ukraine takes Crimea, you have to be insane to think that Ukraine is simply going to give it back to Russia in some kind of settlement. That's why I say that the possible outcomes of the war, if Ukraine has any success at all are: Crimean independence, Crimean autonomy as part of Ukraine, or Crimean fully re-integrated with Ukraine.
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
146455 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:27 pm to
And Ukraine not having explicit defense from Russia deciding to try this all over again in 20 years is a non starter for them as well
Posted by Burhead
Member since Dec 2014
2099 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:36 pm to
quote:

@WarMonitors · 23m ??Pushilin: Ending the SMO without achieving its goals simply means postponing a new war to a later date


About the only truthful statement the Russians have ever said. How can you go the negotiating table with that mindset?
Posted by Tigris
Cloud Cuckoo Land
Member since Jul 2005
12598 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:40 pm to
That's a good point about Russia largely shutting down their Black Sea fleet. And that's because of worries about Harpoon missiles as well as air and boat drones. The Harpoon has a range of 300 KM which is also the range I'm seeing for ATACMs. Sevastopol is within that range of Kherson now. And if the Ukraine army drives down to the Sea of Azov then the naval base at Novorossiysk is also easily within 300 KM of ATACMs and Harpoon. Russia would probably have to make Sochi their Black Sea naval base; assuming the war ends with Ukraine having ATACAMs and the territory to the north of the Sea of Azov.
Posted by tigeraddict
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2007
12129 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 12:53 pm to
Activists placed a destroyed T-72 outside the Russian Embassy in Berlin with the barrel aimed at the embassy.....

Reuters
Posted by Coeur du Tigre
It was just outside of Barstow...
Member since Nov 2008
1588 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

And this is why I just read several pages of speculation about what the end of the conflict looks like, and I don't think that y'all understand that the Ukrainian path to victory goes through Crimea.
Absofrickinglutely. Crimea is Ukrainian and it's not negotiable. The Russians have very little leverage now and after the Ukrainian Spring offensive as you describe, they'll have none. They'll take peace talks seriously then, so here's what they'll be faced with:

- Ukrainian borders reset to pre-2014;

- Any persons that wish to be Russian or establish an 'independent region' gets a free bus ticket to Russia;

- Expedited Ukrainian membership in the EU and NATO, with a Ramstein II AFB outside of Odessa and a US Naval base in Sevastopol;

- Full sanctions continue until all war costs and damage to all countries are repaid. Russian gas and oil sales to go through Kiev with Moscow getting 2% gross until it is all repaid;

- All kidnapped Ukrainian citizens are repatriated;

- All war criminals to be arrested and tried in international courts, starting with the Russian leadership.

And that's just the start of a long list. Too tough? frick that. Let those animals go back to live in the frozen mud. These are the kinds of people that permanently need boots on their necks. That's the only way we'll have peace out of Russia.


Posted by AU86
Member since Aug 2009
23216 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

They have moved out after being subject to attack from land drones/missiles from Ukraine.



True but that is not losing it permanently. Can you imagine Russians accepting a NATO base there? Losing that naval base for Russia would be the equivalent to us losing a major strategic base to China. It would be the greatest strategic disaster in 100 years for them. Russians were overjoyed when Putin took Crimea. They consider it to be a gem for them. Putin will not relinquish Crimea without taking some drastic measures. That is what Macron is referring to when he says Russia should not be humiliated. Again if Putin loses Crimea he is a dead man walking. Macron and others like him are scared to death of a disabled Russia. Whether you agree or not, the thought of what might happen with that instability causes hesitation in providing Ukraine with the ability to take it among those types.

Vladimir Putin will 'die in prison' if he orders Russian troops out of Ukraine | Bill Browder/Times Radio/youtube
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 1:47 pm
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
18921 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 1:48 pm to
quote:

It would be the greatest strategic disaster in 100 years for them.


It already is, even without losing Crimea. I recommend Perun's latest video if you want to see, spelled out letter by letter, all the ways that this is a strategic failure for Russia, even if it were to "win" now and ultimately keep the areas of Ukraine that it is occupying.
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