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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Posted on 2/24/23 at 4:53 pm to
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 4:53 pm to
It’s sincere in the sense those two nitwits want peace talks now before Ukraine’s counter offensive can very potentially give them more leverage against Russia, and they both have drug their feet the last year and want a future relationship with Russia that’s not internationally scorned.
Posted by klrstix
Shreveport, LA
Member since Oct 2006
3569 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 4:53 pm to
quote:

Hopefully it is sincere.



If by sincere you mean what is in Germany's and France's short term interest then yeah... its sincere...

Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
28324 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 4:54 pm to
quote:

DabosDynasty



I couldnt open your link, who are the two nit wits
Posted by SteelerBravesDawg
Member since Sep 2020
43337 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:05 pm to
quote:

who are the two nit wits

Marcon & Scholz.
Posted by Lakeboy7
New Orleans
Member since Jul 2011
28324 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:09 pm to
quote:

Marcon & Scholz.




quote:

two nit wits


Accurate.
Posted by StormyMcMan
USA
Member since Oct 2016
4669 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:35 pm to
That tweet about the WSJ article left out a key part. They want it in conjunction with a NATO defense pact. This is the 1st two paragraphs from the article

quote:

Germany, France and Britain see stronger ties between NATO and Ukraine as a way to encourage Kyiv to start peace talks with Russia later this year, officials from the three governments said, as some of Kyiv’s Western partners have growing doubts over its ability to reconquer all its territory.

U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak last week laid out a blueprint for an agreement to give Ukraine much broader access to advanced military equipment, weapons and ammunition to defend itself once the war ends. He said the plan should be on the agenda for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s annual meeting in July.
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:43 pm to
Yesterday and today, the European Union, the UK, Australia, the US, and Canada all announced new rounds of sanctions on Russia.

The economic noose continues to tighten.
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 5:45 pm
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:47 pm to
I laughed. More than once.


Posted by nitwit
Member since Oct 2007
13091 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 5:50 pm to
If we are being honest, the economic sanctions have not been terribly effective to date..
Plenty of blame to go around for that, but Russia has handled it pretty well.
Posted by IAmNERD
Member since May 2017
24238 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:01 pm to
quote:

Yesterday and today, the European Union, the UK, Australia, the US, and Canada all announced new rounds of sanctions on Russia.

The economic noose continues to tighten.

I wish this was as effective as it was claimed to be, but it really hasn't done much to slow the Russians down to this point.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:12 pm to
Posted by TutHillTiger
Mississippi Alabama
Member since Sep 2010
49830 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:15 pm to
So the Russians today threatened to role back Poland’s borders. Since they are a NATO member can we just take them out now or do we have to wait.

And BTW, FU China, offer to host peace talks and leak plans to send weapons and drones in same breath.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105276 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:41 pm to
If China pulls this shite we should immediately establish full diplomatic relations with Taiwan and recognize its sovereignty.
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:42 pm to
Posted by DabosDynasty
Member since Apr 2017
5180 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:43 pm to
quote:

If China pulls this shite we should immediately establish full diplomatic relations with Taiwan and recognize its sovereignty.


And/or sell them advanced military tech.
Posted by TutHillTiger
Mississippi Alabama
Member since Sep 2010
49830 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 6:44 pm to
Cruise missiles can easily sink those ships, just saying
Posted by tigeraddict
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2007
14807 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 7:00 pm to
quote:

I would think what is more probable is 2023 ends with increasing attrition/stalemate setting in and more push for a negotiated settlement behind the scenes where both sides get to walk away with their "win". A Ukraine that keeps 90% of its territory, EU membership/funding for recovery, and security guarantees (or even a DMZ like the Koreas) and a Russia that keeps its break aways probably fits that at a high level.


This perspective only looks at this through the eyes that this started in February 2022. This has been going on since 2014, it only ramped up last year. Unless Ukraine starts losing territory again I don’t see them going to the peace table. And if Russia is moving again I don’t see them at the peace table.

A stalemate means this thing doesn’t end. This is regardless if the west stops funding. Ukraine knows a loss and surrendering land will just delay the next attack. If Russia is allowed to be rewarded for their aggression it will only embolden them (and others in the world).

This is why the west needs to give long range weapons. Long range weapons can kill the already weak Russian logistics. And that will allow Ukraine to push Russia back. Only then Will Russia go to the peace table
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 7:01 pm to
quote:

If we are being honest, the economic sanctions have not been terribly effective to date..
Plenty of blame to go around for that, but Russia has handled it pretty well.



I agree. For all of the clownish ineptitude of the Russian military, the Russian central bankers have performed admirably, far above expectations.

And that's why the UK is sending Storm Shadow to Ukraine. I'll explain.

As many of you have recently pointed out, most Western leaders do not want to see Russia collapse into chaos, with a coup that leads to a power struggle in the Kremlin, new breakaway republics declaring independence, and nuclear weapons ending up in the hands of random warlords.

So, until January, most of NATO wanted Russia to lose this war, but not too dramatically or too quickly. The thought process was:

"We'll give Ukraine enough weapons to hold the line with Russia, while our economic sanctions bring Russia to its financial knees. Eventually, economic pressure will force Putin to come to the table, and we can help negotiate a deal that Putin and Zelensky can both stomach."

But that plan did not work for two reasons:

1) Putin doubled down by annexing much of Ukraine, including large areas that Russia does not presently control. He's backed himself into a corner and refused every "off ramp" that he's been offered.

2) The impact of the sanctions has been mixed. They have indeed been effective in many ways in harming Russian military production, as the lack of machine tools has preventing Russia from starting new production lines and maintaining current ones. But the economic impact has been far, far less than hoped. Shipments of goods from the UK and EU to many nations that border Russia (such as Georgia and some of the 'stans) are up over 400%, meaning that Russia is simply using many businesses in those countries as middlemen. And India and the Gulf states are doing lots and lots of extra business with Russia.

So, NATO's Plan A is kaput. The Russian economy is not going to collapse, and economic pressure is not going to bring Russia to the negotiating table.

That's why much of NATO is now firmly behind Plan B, which is simply "Ukrainian victory."

That's the nexus of the remarkable unity of the Tallinn Group (the UK, the Netherlands, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania) that formed before the January Ramstein meeting.
quote:

We recognise that equipping Ukraine to push Russia out of its territory is as important as equipping them to defend what they already have. Together we will continue supporting Ukraine to move from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil ... Therefore, we commit to collectively pursuing delivery of an unprecedented set of donations


The entire artillery of Denmark previously consisted of 19 Caesar SPGs, and Denmark gave all of them to Ukraine -- the country no longer has an artillery. The UK started the NATO tank donations with its Challenger 2 tanks, and PM Sunak recently said that the UK will be the first to give Ukraine long-range weapons (which can only mean Storm Shadow). The Netherlands were the first to publicly offer their F-16s (pending a broader coalition). And Poland humiliated Germany in forcing it to organize the Leopard coalition.

When the Tallinn Group decided to go "all-in" on Ukrainian victory, the Macron-Scholz system became defunct. Those two are no longer real leaders in NATO in any significant sense. They have tried to adapt: Macron has talked more about Ukrainian victory lately and pledged Akeron MP units and 25 AMX-10P infantry fighting vehicles. Scholz replaced the incompetent Christine Lambrecht with Boris Pistorius, who is doing a much better job and is helping get more equipment to Ukraine.

But the Tallinn Group more broadly, and the UK and Poland most specifically, are now leading the NATO effort in supplying Ukraine.

President Biden is trying to position the US in-between the Tallinn Group and the France/Germany/Spain/Belgium/Croatia/Portugal/Greece/Turkey/etc. group that wants to help Ukraine some but is more concerned with being "seen" as helping Ukraine. So, instead of leading NATO in terms of our direction, Biden is trying to focus on keeping NATO together. [EDIT: but, after meeting Zelensky in Kyiv, do note that Biden went to Warsaw to meet with Polish leaders -- not to Berlin or Paris.]

The supply of GLSDB, JDAM-ER, and Storm Shadow reflects that change in NATO strategy, because it fundamentally alters the war by providing Ukraine with the opportunity to take Crimea. As many of you have noted, Putin might not survive that. There could be chaos in Russia. Someone like Prigozhin could end up with nukes. But those are the risks that have to be taken, because Putin has given NATO no alternative to Ukrainian victory.
This post was edited on 2/24/23 at 7:15 pm
Posted by GOP_Tiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2005
20967 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 7:09 pm to
Let's examine how this works with some excerpts from this article from Monday by Lt-Gen (rtd.) Ben Hodges, former Commanding General, US Army Europe.

quote:

For Ukraine, the road to victory runs through Crimea. It is the key. It is the decisive terrain. Liberating Crimea, this year, will change everything in this war.
quote:

Meanwhile, Ukraine’s logistics are steadily improving thanks to support from the coalition, although ammunition stocks are low. Russia’s logistics are steadily worsening thanks to sanctions, poor/corrupt management, excessive consumption, and accurate targeting by Ukrainian precision weapons.

Russia currently has 97% of its army in Ukraine, according to British Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, and yet it is still unable to capture even the small town on Bahkmut in the country’s east, which is defended predominantly by territorial defense forces and national guard troops. That tells me that Russian forces are likely to culminate before the end of May; they simply can’t sustain the losses and ammunition expenditures at the current rate for much longer and they remain unable to conduct joint, combined operations.
quote:

Our focus should be on helping Ukraine liberate Crimea; it should be the main effort, while using “economy of force” in the east to slow/stop Russian ground attacks. Ukraine knows it will never be safe or secure so long as Russia occupies the peninsula. Any peace settlement which results in Russia holding onto this land would simply allow the Kremlin to wait two or three years until we, the West, lose interest, while in the meanwhile they rebuild the military, address their mistakes, and restart their war against Ukraine — that, after all, has been the pattern since 2008.

OK, so how can Ukraine go about this?

Liberating Crimea means first making it untenable for the Russian army, navy, and air forces on the peninsula and then occupying it.

Start with isolating it using long-range precision strikes against the only two land lines of communication that connect it to Russia; the Kerch Bridge, already severely damaged by Ukrainian forces, and the so-called “land bridge” which connects Crimea to Russia via Mariupol and Melitopol along the coastline of Azov Sea. Targeting that transportation infrastructure will begin the isolation of Crimea from resupply or movement.

A large Ukrainian armored force attacking southeastwards in the direction of the Azov Sea and penetrating Russian linear defenses would complete the isolation of Crimea and enable the closer deployment of HIMARS rocket launchers which would then be in range of key Russian facilities in Crimea. Crimea is about the size of Massachusetts. There’s no place to hide. The locations of all Russian facilities are well known and obvious — and vulnerable.

Precision strikes on Sevastopol will force the Black Sea fleet to reposition to Novorossiysk which is far less capable as a base, and further away from Ukrainian cities. The airbase at Saky, on the west coast of Crimea, should be made completely unusable. And the logistics hub at Dzhankoy in the north of Crimea should become a huge bonfire. Once Crimea is untenable, then Ukrainian ground forces can begin to attack south, towards the Perekop Isthmus, and then into broader Crimea. Other Ukrainian assets (special forces, marines, unmanned systems, etc) will also play a role.

Is there any better military objective? Why not the Donbas?

It’s important but not decisive. The liberation of Donbas won’t significantly change the strategic situation. The liberation of Crimea would be such a monumental defeat for Russia that I think the will to fight among Russian troops and “separatists” in the region would likely evaporate.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
105276 posts
Posted on 2/24/23 at 7:16 pm to
Here's an op ed by a couple of Yale economists that states Russia's economy has not weathered the sanctions well at all. LINK

quote:

A year after Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, some cynics lament that the unprecedented economic pressure campaign against Russia has not yet ended the Putin regime. What they’re missing is the transformation that has happened right before our eyes: Russia has become an economic afterthought and a deflated world power.

Coupled with Putin’s own misfires, economic pressure has eroded Russia’s economic might as brave Ukrainian fighters, HIMARS, Leopard tanks, and PATRIOT missiles held off Russian troops on the battlefield. This past year, the Russian economic machine has been impaired as our original research compendium shows. Here are Russia’s most notable economic defeats:
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