re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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No one really said you were incorrect in thinking Putin might do it. They correctly give you grief for doomsday forecasting and thinking we just need to give Putin whatever he wants to avoid it.

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But we did agree to leave the old eastern bloc countries alone after the fall of the USSR and this is pretty much the opposite of that.

I don’t see how the situation today is better than if Donbas region had been granted autonomy with Ukraine agreeing not to join NATO.


It wasn’t a huge ask, hell the NATO part was agreed on after the fall of the USSR though conveniently forgotten today apparently.

Are all the lives lost worth it?

Someone please explain how today is better than before the war and how it is worth all of these lives lost.

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Ukraine has clarified what he meant which was not calling for a nuclear strike.

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Right. It's the opposite. It's about preventing nuclear war.

What Zelensky is saying is that the West might have prevented the February 24 invasion if they had put severe sanctions in place before the invasion, instead of simply promising Russia that we would do so later.

We knew Russia was going to invade Ukraine, but we waited for the invasion to impose sanctions.

If Russia were to use a nuclear weapon, NATO would likely cut off all trade with Russia and impose secondary sanctions any nation that does. It would force China and India to choose.

What Zelensky is saying is that, if we get intelligence that Russia is about to use a nuclear weapon, then we should go ahead and impose those sanctions preemptively to attempt to prevent nuclear war.

And he's right.

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and impose secondary sanctions any nation that does. It would force China and India to choose.

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This is key and I hope we have already told this to China and India. They have got to know that this will happen. Don’t wait till nukes start going off to pick up the phone to discuss.

Excellent post.

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But we did agree to leave the old eastern bloc countries alone after the fall of the USSR and this is pretty much the opposite of that.

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It wasn’t a huge ask, hell the NATO part was agreed on after the fall of the USSR though conveniently forgotten today apparently.

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Since you are clearly more up on the paperwork signed between the USSR/Russia and NATO could you please link what we have forgotten now? I assume you can because it is unlikely you are just blindly parroting things you have heard repeated recently.

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Yes but his mistake is assuming the press will understand the nuance and insinuation. The press is just interested in driving eyeballs and clicks so that was a bad assumption on his part.

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And those on here and elsewhere who are loosing their shydt about Zelinski's statement need to read the actual text of his statement rather than the distorted bullshydt published in the press in order to stir up the public and get hits on the web.

Full Quote for your convenience :

Zelenskyy calls for preventative pressure on Russia due to its nuclear threats: cue hysteria in Russia
Thursday, 6 October 2022, 21:48

Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine, has called upon NATO to respond to Russia’s nuclear threats by applying preventative pressure. Russia has perceived this statement as a call for a preemptive strike on Russia.

Source: Zelenskyy, during a discussion at the Lowy Institute, Australia, which he attended via video link; Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the President of Russia; Maria Zakharova, representative of Russia’s Ministry for Foreign Affairs; Serhii Nykyforov, spokesperson for Zelenskyy, on Facebook

Quote from Zelenskyy in response to a question about what NATO should do to prevent Russia from using nuclear weapons:

"We can already see that these people [the Russians – ed.] are capable of such atrocities. What must NATO do? Make it impossible for Russia to use nuclear weapons. But what is [even more] important, I am once again turning to the international community as I did before 24 February. Preventative strikes, so that they know what will await them if they use [a nuclear weapon]. Not the other way round – wait for Russian nuclear strikes and then say afterwards, ‘Oh, it’s like that, is it? Well, take this from us!’

Reconsider applying pressure - that’s what NATO should do, and reconsider the order in which it is applied."

Ukrainska Pravda

All groups were great workers. Generally college degrees but had 4 unskilled laborers and never had an alcoholic on the team.

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But we did agree to leave the old eastern bloc countries alone after the fall of the USSR and this is pretty much the opposite of that.

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That would be a hell no. We most certainly did not promise to leave them alone; we immediately began the Partnership for Peace programs, and began onramping Central and Eastern European nations for NATO membership. We are fast closing on 20 years of membership for Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia-- Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have had NATO borders directly on Russian territory since March 2004.

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I don’t see how the situation today is better than if Donbas region had been granted autonomy with Ukraine agreeing not to join NATO.

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Aside from the abrogation of the Budapest Memorandum that guaranteed the indivisible borders of the Ukraine, signed by the Russian Federation in 1994?

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It wasn’t a huge ask, hell the NATO part was agreed on after the fall of the USSR though conveniently forgotten today apparently.

Are all the lives lost worth it?

Someone please explain how today is better than before the war and how it is worth all of these lives lost.

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Yes, it most certainly was a huge ask. Ukraine has been an independent nation, guaranteed its own security choices since the mid 90s. Likewise, NATO has always possessed the right of free choices of association.

It was and remains absolutely none of the Russian's damned business who either does business with. They don't have to like it-- they can even be super unhappy about it-- but they don't get to try to change it without consequences.

If the war isn't worth the consequences to date, that responsibility lies solely with those who initiated the conflict in Moscow.

Good points.

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Aside from the abrogation of the Budapest Memorandum that guaranteed the indivisible borders of the Ukraine, signed by the Russian Federation in 1994?

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Seems like the US violated this as recently as the Obama administration.