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re: Karen Read murder trial - Not guilty on main - guilty of OUI(DUI) only
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:05 pm to IT_Dawg
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:05 pm to IT_Dawg
quote:
Thought they were on tomorrow and then potentially off Thursday and Friday…
Thanks gents. Thought someone earlier said they were off tomorrow but didn’t see an explanation.
So pretty sure the verdict will be rendered tomorrow then
1
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:09 pm to idlewatcher
Don't hold your breath.
There's still a Tuey/Allen charge to be given. If they are truly deadlocked, this goes beyond tomorrow 100%.
There's still a Tuey/Allen charge to be given. If they are truly deadlocked, this goes beyond tomorrow 100%.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:18 pm to KosmoCramer
By placing OUI as a sub charge to count 2, getting hung on any part of count 2 (OUI) would potentially allow them to claim another mistrial and retry on count 2. I don't know if it holds up, or was their intent, but it's the simplest explanation for her making it so convoluted.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:22 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
Hillary Clinton level suspicious....
Posted on 6/17/25 at 8:29 pm to sosaysmorvant
quote:
and they got rid of the family dog!
Got rid of the dog, has since moved out the house.
Then there was the thing with Higgins being at the police station (or wherever) for an usually long time, when KR's SUV was brought in.
Then dogs bites.. She is on trial for hitting him, yet he has no injuries that shows "oh yeah this was done by a vehicle"... Instead, his injuries look like dog bites.. The end of the trial the prosecution was trying to discredit the dog bite experts and got embarrassed. The fact this case didn't get thrown out is insane to me..
Posted on 6/17/25 at 10:31 pm to Galactic Inquisitor
THIS!
Why isn’t there a not guilty box next to each lesser offense beneath manslaughter while OUI?
Suppose they are hung on only #5, OUI, but are unanimous on not guilty to the 3 other lesser charges?
It is my understanding that if they are hung on ANY of the lessers under manslaughter while OUI, then she’s retried for manslaughter while OUI (and all lesser charges) AGAIN.
You have to be guilty of OUI in order to be guilty of Manslaughter while OUI, but you don’t have to be guilty of manslaughter in order to be guilty of OUI.
It makes no sense to retry someone on the bigger offense if the jury finds the defendant NG to the bigger offense.
Taxpayers having to pay for ANOTHER trial with experts and the whole nine yards could be avoided if there were “not guilty” options next to all the lesser charges. If they had the OPTION to say not guilty to all, but hung on #5, then there would only be an OUI trial, not a manslaughter while OUI trial.
Am I misunderstanding something?
This was verdict slip before Bev added if you think not guilty then sign here and stop.
Why isn’t there a not guilty box next to each lesser offense beneath manslaughter while OUI?
Suppose they are hung on only #5, OUI, but are unanimous on not guilty to the 3 other lesser charges?
It is my understanding that if they are hung on ANY of the lessers under manslaughter while OUI, then she’s retried for manslaughter while OUI (and all lesser charges) AGAIN.
You have to be guilty of OUI in order to be guilty of Manslaughter while OUI, but you don’t have to be guilty of manslaughter in order to be guilty of OUI.
It makes no sense to retry someone on the bigger offense if the jury finds the defendant NG to the bigger offense.
Taxpayers having to pay for ANOTHER trial with experts and the whole nine yards could be avoided if there were “not guilty” options next to all the lesser charges. If they had the OPTION to say not guilty to all, but hung on #5, then there would only be an OUI trial, not a manslaughter while OUI trial.
Am I misunderstanding something?
This was verdict slip before Bev added if you think not guilty then sign here and stop.
This post was edited on 6/18/25 at 12:31 am
Posted on 6/17/25 at 10:49 pm to berrycajun
I think it will depend on the numbers who voted G vs NG.
If it’s a HJ again, they’ll gauge how many voted G as a test balloon for a re-re-try. And will they hire another special even more special prosecutor?
If it’s a HJ again, they’ll gauge how many voted G as a test balloon for a re-re-try. And will they hire another special even more special prosecutor?
Posted on 6/18/25 at 12:31 am to idlewatcher
I’m now hearing Massachusetts doesn’t allow partial verdicts. Not sure if true or not.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 12:36 am to berrycajun
All of this will be resolved if they convict her on the OUI. Unfortunately for KR, the jury seems hung on the OUI, which in this case is going to be a worse scenario than a guilty verdict.
ETA: With a guilty verdict on OUI. Obviously a guilty verdict on other counts would not be better than hung. Sorry. I did not think that needed to be explained.
If the jury hangs on OUI, KR will be retried on all of count two, not just OUI. That means she will be retried on manslaughter, even though this jury would have voted NG on manslaughter if the lesser included OUI had not been on the verdict form.
ETA: With a guilty verdict on OUI. Obviously a guilty verdict on other counts would not be better than hung. Sorry. I did not think that needed to be explained.
If the jury hangs on OUI, KR will be retried on all of count two, not just OUI. That means she will be retried on manslaughter, even though this jury would have voted NG on manslaughter if the lesser included OUI had not been on the verdict form.
This post was edited on 6/18/25 at 10:43 am
Posted on 6/18/25 at 6:46 am to go ta hell ole miss
quote:
Unfortunately for KR, the jury seems hung on the OUI, which in this case is going to be a worse scenario than a guilty verdict.
What?
Posted on 6/18/25 at 6:59 am to Epic Cajun
He's simply saying if they find her guilty of OUI, she's done with this mess. If they hang, she can be recharged on all of #2.
This post was edited on 6/18/25 at 7:00 am
Posted on 6/18/25 at 7:24 am to Saintsisit
quote:
He's simply saying if they find her guilty of OUI, she's done with this mess. If they hang, she can be recharged on all of #2.
I was completely misreading that. I thought he meant guilty on more serious charges.
Surely the state isn't stupid enough to try her again. They are just wasting taxpayers dollars at this point.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 7:32 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
Surely the state isn't stupid enough to try her again. They are just wasting taxpayers dollars at this point.
They want their pound of flesh. It's obvious.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 7:32 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
Surely the state isn't stupid enough to try her again. They are just wasting taxpayers dollars at this point.
You should begin to realize that the state's motivations in this prosecution are not rooted in ethical or justice-driven principles, but instead stem from political ambition or protecting a certain group of people.
They don't care what it cost. They are paying a special prosecutor around one million for the 2nd trial. They paid some "experts" $350,000 to paint their arm blue. The DA doesn't care what the cost is, but he knows that is he gets a conviction of Karen it takes heat off a certain group of people.
This post was edited on 6/18/25 at 7:33 am
Posted on 6/18/25 at 7:34 am to civiltiger07
Just listened to arguments and Bev’a response on question 4. She is a disgrace to the profession and is acting like this is her first day. AJ is correct. There is a HUGE difference in stating “I can’t answer that question” and “I need more information / I can’t address a hypothetical”.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 7:45 am to berrycajun
quote:
Why isn’t there a not guilty box next to each lesser offense beneath manslaughter while OUI? Suppose they are hung on only #5, OUI, but are unanimous on not guilty to the 3 other lesser charges? It is my understanding that if they are hung on ANY of the lessers under manslaughter while OUI, then she’s retried for manslaughter while OUI (and all lesser charges) AGAIN.
You are correct. That’s MA law, as ridiculous and unjust as it is. If Cannone had any cojones she would do exactly what everyone with two functioning brain cells has been saying- allow the jury to memorialize their verdict for each lesser included. There is such a thing as case law and this would be a great time to set a precedent. Of course, she is not actively pursuing a just and fair outcome as evidenced by her behavior and rulings in both trials, so she is quite satisfied if the whole thing hangs again.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 8:00 am to idlewatcher
quote:
They want their pound of flesh. It's obvious.
No they will protect these criminal cops at any cost, because their is a bigger issue at hand that involves several levels of law enforcement, several agencies and criminals activity.
My guess is JOK either wanted a piece of the action or he was going to reveal everything or he was get close to uncovering something and would not go away - so they killed him and tried to frame his unstable girlfriend.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 8:04 am to winkchance
quote:
No they will protect these criminal cops at any cost,
pound of flesh relative to convicting someone other than the cops is what I meant. No doubt in my mind the people at 34 Fairview murdered this man. Zero. quote:
My guess is JOK either wanted a piece of the action
Plausible IMO but I still think Higgins baited him into something.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 8:09 am to winkchance
quote:
My guess is JOK either wanted a piece of the action or he was going to reveal everything or he was get close to uncovering something and would not go away - so they killed him and tried to frame his unstable girlfriend.
IMO you are way off. Higgins wanted to get with Karen and John was the road block to do that. Something happened in the house and things went a bit to far, then they freaked out and decided to cover it up. I do not think for one second that anyone intended to kill John.
Posted on 6/18/25 at 8:11 am to civiltiger07
Wouldn't be surprised if Higgins showed John the text strand with Karen. He flipped out, was already more than likely drunk and that was that.
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