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re: FDR was an awful president and MacArthur was an awful general.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:43 pm to geaux88
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:43 pm to geaux88
FDR was a hardcore fascist (Chomsky agrees) who operated the US in an economic way like Hitler ran Germany. Private economy but centrally planned.
There is an Aleut graveyard not far from here where that fascist interned natives under extremely harsh conditions. The childrens headstones are heartbreaking.
FDR never found a civil liberty he couldn't destroy.
There is an Aleut graveyard not far from here where that fascist interned natives under extremely harsh conditions. The childrens headstones are heartbreaking.
FDR never found a civil liberty he couldn't destroy.
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Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:43 pm to Cosmo
quote:
FDR and LBJ are most responsible for todays social issues
The fall started with Hoover.
We haven't had a decent, not good, just decent president since Coolidge. Coolidge would be run off as a crackpot today by the Democrats and the Republicans alike. Coolidge has got to be at the top outside of the founders.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:43 pm to red sox fan 13
quote:
Sounds like the people who came after him should have shuttered his policies then.
Point to me a politician that actually governs on cutting things like handouts not named Ron or Rand Paul.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:44 pm to LSUinMA
MacArthur didn't lose the Phillipines, nobody could have held them under the circumstances. He did freeze like a deer in the headlights and failed to give orders that would have mounted a more robust defense and saved American lives. To his credit, he intended to stay in the Phillipines and die with his men. When he was ordered out, he expected to be courtmartialed. Instead he was awarded the Medal of Honor for propaganda and morale reasons.
Given another chance at command, he saved Australia. When he went on the offensive, he incurred fewer casualties than any other major command of the war.
As de facto Viceroy of Japan, his leadership was nothing short of inspired. He took back the Korean peninsula in a brilliant counteroffensive. Then blundered it all away by ignoring his own intelligence reports about Chinese troops massing on the border. Fired for insubordination, he could have, and indeed was urged to, Wage a divisive presidential campaign and instead chose to "fade away" into retirement. In short, perhaps the most complex figure in the history of that era.
As for FDR, he remains a polarizing figure. Whether you agree with him or not, it's quite probable he forestalled something much more radical. Both communists and fascists were itching for a second American Revolution in their own image, and a lot of desperate people were willing to listen.
Given another chance at command, he saved Australia. When he went on the offensive, he incurred fewer casualties than any other major command of the war.
As de facto Viceroy of Japan, his leadership was nothing short of inspired. He took back the Korean peninsula in a brilliant counteroffensive. Then blundered it all away by ignoring his own intelligence reports about Chinese troops massing on the border. Fired for insubordination, he could have, and indeed was urged to, Wage a divisive presidential campaign and instead chose to "fade away" into retirement. In short, perhaps the most complex figure in the history of that era.
As for FDR, he remains a polarizing figure. Whether you agree with him or not, it's quite probable he forestalled something much more radical. Both communists and fascists were itching for a second American Revolution in their own image, and a lot of desperate people were willing to listen.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:45 pm to red sox fan 13
Yes, so easy to turn back massive social programs like social security during two wars. Once people started sucking on the government tit, do you think they will vote for someone to take it away from them?
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:45 pm to jscrims
quote:
The common theme in each of these presidents policy was government funded support for the poor.
The government has no business paying for peoples shite. Family and charity can handle this just fine if the government gets the frick out of the way and stops stealing their money.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:48 pm to grizzlylongcut
Well, let's just go ahead and force ourselves into an extreme, shall we?
FDR was clearly seen as a great leader by contemporaneous Americans. That is something that should make one do a double take before declaring him "awful."
I'm not a fan, but I was born over 30 years after he died.
He was definitely an ideological Leftist, but thankfully the Supreme Court kept some of his worst policies in check. Huge government was really the result of World War II and the Cold War more than the Depression.
Social Security was a terrible idea and will have terrible long term consequences. HIs trust of Stalin was embarrassing, but at least he had Churchill to warn him and hold him back.
As Greatest gen and Boomers die off, his legacy will be seen as more of a mixed one as the longterm consequences of some of his legacy turn negative.
MacArthur is similar. His ego was unparalleled, even by Patton. He was a huge dickhead. Yet, his blowhard mentality worked in alot of situations. He was needed at the time and, at the end of the day, his leadership helped win the war. When it comes to Korea, he should have known his place. Andrew Jackson had the excuse of slow communications when he took the initiative to invade Florida, war on the Seminole in their own territory, and occupy Spanish Pensacola without executive permission to do so. Mac didnt have that excuse in crossing the 38th parallel. Even if Truman was skittish (arguable), you can't ignore a direct order from the President.
FDR was clearly seen as a great leader by contemporaneous Americans. That is something that should make one do a double take before declaring him "awful."
I'm not a fan, but I was born over 30 years after he died.
He was definitely an ideological Leftist, but thankfully the Supreme Court kept some of his worst policies in check. Huge government was really the result of World War II and the Cold War more than the Depression.
Social Security was a terrible idea and will have terrible long term consequences. HIs trust of Stalin was embarrassing, but at least he had Churchill to warn him and hold him back.
As Greatest gen and Boomers die off, his legacy will be seen as more of a mixed one as the longterm consequences of some of his legacy turn negative.
MacArthur is similar. His ego was unparalleled, even by Patton. He was a huge dickhead. Yet, his blowhard mentality worked in alot of situations. He was needed at the time and, at the end of the day, his leadership helped win the war. When it comes to Korea, he should have known his place. Andrew Jackson had the excuse of slow communications when he took the initiative to invade Florida, war on the Seminole in their own territory, and occupy Spanish Pensacola without executive permission to do so. Mac didnt have that excuse in crossing the 38th parallel. Even if Truman was skittish (arguable), you can't ignore a direct order from the President.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:49 pm to grizzlylongcut
My grandfather was attached to MacArthur’s detail for a time during WWII and said that he was the biggest a-hole he’d ever met.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:51 pm to armsdealer
quote:
Family and charity can handle this just fine
Fact one f the matter they didn't before the social safety net. You can make an argument that the solution created its own set of intractable problems, but it's not like those people were being taken care of.
A woman in the 19th century whose husband died or ran off often became a prostitute out of necessity.
This post was edited on 10/27/21 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:51 pm to jscrims
Take it at gunpoint then. That’s what happened to southern whites following the war anyway in our timeline. Ike or Nixon should have done it. Hell, Reagan had 8 years. He could have spent his time erasing great society programs, putting up voting obstacles and intensifying the war on drugs to break the Dems’ backs. Obviously you couldn’t get away with it these days though.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:52 pm to armsdealer
quote:
The government has no business paying for peoples shite. Family and charity can handle this just fine if the government gets the frick out of the way and stops stealing their money.
Those two succeeded in creating the permanent underclass in this nation. My grandfather can remember those farmers not working a second more as soon as those checks started rolling in from daddy government.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 3:53 pm to grizzlylongcut
I don’t know nearly enough about MacArthur to debate, but I have heard he was overrated and did a bunch of stuff to promote his image. I don’t know if he was terrible, though.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:00 pm to upgrade
Most of the bad things said about him were true. OTOH he was also a military genius when he was on his game. William Manchester's bio of him was titled American Caesar. That's a pretty good analogy although he chose not to try to seize ultimate power when the opportunity presented itself.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:00 pm to upgrade
We can all sit here and armchair quarterback but in listening to my late grandmother who was raising two children, alone, during the Depression, had it not been for FDR and Huey Long, my grandmother and my aunt and daddy would have starved to death.
Those were different times none of us "soft" motherfrickers know anything about.
As to MacArthur, my dad was a Marine fighting in the S. Pacific. He never like Macarthur nor did my grandmother. Grandmother said he got too many boys killed because of his ego. She and my daddy were happy when Truman canned him.
Further, my grandmother would shoot your arse if you said anything about Harry S Truman. She said a zillion times had he not dropped those bombs, my daddy and thousands of other young Marines and soldiers would no doubt have died during invasions of Japan.
So, say what you want, those are opinions of people who lived it.
Those were different times none of us "soft" motherfrickers know anything about.
As to MacArthur, my dad was a Marine fighting in the S. Pacific. He never like Macarthur nor did my grandmother. Grandmother said he got too many boys killed because of his ego. She and my daddy were happy when Truman canned him.
Further, my grandmother would shoot your arse if you said anything about Harry S Truman. She said a zillion times had he not dropped those bombs, my daddy and thousands of other young Marines and soldiers would no doubt have died during invasions of Japan.
So, say what you want, those are opinions of people who lived it.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:04 pm to bulldog95
quote:
MacArthurs biggest mistake was the Korean War but if truth be told he wanted to finish off the Koreans but he was ordered to stop before he could and that allowed China to send troops into North Korea and this stop the US.
Absolutely could not be more incorrect there.
MacArthur's dumbassery in northern Korea drew China heavily into the conflict and damn near started WWIII.
Also, his arrogance, along with his subordinate's lead directly to the almost oblivion of US Forces at Chosin. Marine general Oliver Smith saved his arse.
Go read up. I suggest you start with On Frozen Ground.
USMC General Smith is one of the most unheralded heroes the US military has. His foresight, intelligence and drive helped save all US and allied forces in that debacle. Otherwise, US forces would've been annihilated in the most costly and embarrassing defeat the US would've ever suffered.
MacArthur was an arrogant fool.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:16 pm to FreeState
quote:
my daddy and thousands of other young Marines and soldiers would no doubt have died during invasions of Japan.
Not long ago I started to wonder, would a blockade of Japan not have worked?
They needed oil and we could damn sure prevent them from getting it. Did we absolutely have to invade if not for the bombs?
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:22 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Fact one f the matter they didn't before the social safety net. You can make an argument that the solution created its own set of intractable problems, but it's not like those people were being taken care of.
A woman in the 19th century whose husband died or ran off often became a prostitute out of necessity.
The associational nature of American society in the 19th and early 20th century was an amazing phenomenon. The Marxist oriented historians that have ignored that fact in the last 40 years or so have been proven very wrong.
Your example would be an extreme outlying situation that could just as easily happen in 2021. Niall Ferguson's The Square and the Tower is one of many sources that cover how well private organizations helped the poor and needy.
Despite narrow narratives, that period of time saw the fastest growth of living standards for regular people within a certain area (Western Europe/North America) than at any other time in history.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:37 pm to FreeState
quote:
She said a zillion times had he not dropped those bombs, my daddy and thousands of other young Marines and soldiers would no doubt have died during invasions of Japan.
I can relate. My daddy was on the second occupation ship into Tokyo. I guess that doesn't mean he would have been on the second ship if there had been an invasion instead of dropping the bombs, but I'm glad Truman made that call. An invasion of the main Japanese islands would have resulted in a huge loss of life.
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:39 pm to grizzlylongcut
Must be why he got elected four times in a row but he certainly wasn’t a saint just ask the Japanese living in America
Posted on 10/27/21 at 4:41 pm to jscrims
quote:
Most people don’t understand this comment because they are too dumb to look at history. FDR created government jobs to give people employment.
So, you're under the impression that the government can create wealth?
The Depression actually worsened under FDR in '37 & '38 because of his socialistic policies - something the American Education system doesn't like to cover.
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