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re: Conspiracy Theory: Did FDR know Pearl Harbor was going to happen?
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:45 am to OMLandshark
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:45 am to OMLandshark
Of course he knew. They cracked Japan's communications months before pearl harbor. FDR even began trying to goat Japan into attacking after they cracked the codes.
Hopefully a few in this thread will research the topic and then research "why" something like this happens for every war.
Hopefully a few in this thread will research the topic and then research "why" something like this happens for every war.
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Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:22 am to OMLandshark
I know a Pearl Harbor veteran who was on a ship during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. His ship was saved because it was in-board of a larger ship that was sunk.
He told me that he thought that FDR knew it was coming. I don't know if I agree with him or not.
He told me that he thought that FDR knew it was coming. I don't know if I agree with him or not.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:29 am to OMLandshark
I sent him a text message. So yeah, he knew it was going to happen.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 9:40 am to OMLandshark
quote:
I’m hardcore against most 9/11 conspiracy theories, but this is one I can buy.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 10:16 am to Duke
quote:
Since the Japanese were going to hit numerous US targets that day, if FDR knew it was coming, why keep the ships there at all?
Adding to this, why didn't we ambush the Japs if FDR knew what was going on?
Japs launch, war is on, we spring the trap and war is over in short order.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 10:45 am to doubleb
quote:
Adding to this, why didn't we ambush the Japs if FDR knew what was going on?
Japs launch, war is on, we spring the trap and war is over in short order.
There was no public support for attacking the japs. Same thing as WW1, there needed to be a trigger to get massive public buy-in. Remember that one?
As for why allow it to happen? War is big business. Look who made money off the war and look at who in the USA government they had access to. The Bush family is a great place to start as Prescott Bush was financing the NAZIs and desperately wanted USA involved in the war so they could finance and make even more money off the USA side.
There is an unbelievable amount of public information out there on this stuff for those of you interested in these things.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 6:23 pm to notsince98
quote:
They cracked Japan's communications months before pearl harbor.
Not all of them; in particular, JN25, the top IJN code for things like major movements, was not firmly broken until shortly before Midway, when Naval Intelligence planted a false rumor about the failure of Midway's desalinization plant, and used it as a cornerstone of a conclusive breaking JN25. On that basis, they convinced McArthur of the utility of gambling the carriers at Midway. It wasn't like the diplomatic intercepts, that we could read at will.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 6:41 pm to OMLandshark
As noted, Japan hit other American assets besides Pearl Harbor very nearly simultaneously, and strategic assets weren’t protected or moved at those places (the whole “Why were the carriers away” canard). If FDR maneuvered us into the war, he did a pretty shitty job of protecting strategic American assets while doing so.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 6:55 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
The escalation of military technology between 1915 and 1945 isn’t comparable from between 1989 and 2019. 1915 they were still using horses largely on the battlefield. A well armed 1988 army would stand a chance against a 2018 army, with drones being the only hardcore advantage (and they had satellites to make that up.) Nothing the 1915 armies had can compare to what 1945 armies had. They’d get obliterated in an instant.
Navies were pretty damn advanced by 1910, man. There’d been a huge global build up (sometimes to the land forces’ detriment, hence the horses). The naval tech for battleships wasn’t all that different.
And I think you’d be surprised by how much a first world army is better prepared in 2019 than 1988. Besides UAV’s (which are a game changer), commnications, digital, and targeting technology are way, way ahead of where they were then.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:04 pm to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
As noted, Japan hit other American assets besides Pearl Harbor very nearly simultaneously, and strategic assets weren’t protected or moved at those places (the whole “Why were the carriers away” canard). If FDR maneuvered us into the war, he did a pretty shitty job of protecting strategic American assets while doing so.
MacArthur in particular let his air force be destroyed on the ground in the Phillipines despite having 24 hours advance warning. He also failed to preposition supplies in the Bataan peninsula. He should have been court martialed, and expected to be. Instead, he received the Medal of Honor.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:27 pm to OMLandshark
There was a time when I thought this possible. As the years have passed and I've learned more about WWII, I've changed my mind completely. FDR likely knew Japan was looking to expand the battlefield in the Pacific but I don't think he had any real clue where they were hitting. The most he may have known was that they were attacking an unknown target on a particular date.
There's actually a story about the Japanese codebreakers in the "WWII in Color" documentary where we knew an attack was coming but the Japanese were using a coded word, like "Target X", for the target. The Americans thought they had a pretty good idea which island the Japanese were talking about but couldn't say for sure. The Americans released an unsecured wire about a power outage or water issues at Midway (I think) and, sure enough, the Japanese transmitted securely that "Target X" was having electrical issues. With this information, they were able to ambush the Japanese when they came to attack.
There's actually a story about the Japanese codebreakers in the "WWII in Color" documentary where we knew an attack was coming but the Japanese were using a coded word, like "Target X", for the target. The Americans thought they had a pretty good idea which island the Japanese were talking about but couldn't say for sure. The Americans released an unsecured wire about a power outage or water issues at Midway (I think) and, sure enough, the Japanese transmitted securely that "Target X" was having electrical issues. With this information, they were able to ambush the Japanese when they came to attack.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:28 pm to arcalades
quote:
As far as FDR and Pearl Harbor, he might as well have been bc he should be blamed for the Great Depression but gets a pass bc of the communist/liberal he was.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:29 pm to Tigerbait337
A radar station picked up the incoming. Staff on duty deemed it a scheduled flight.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:31 pm to OweO
quote:
FDR didn't have public opinion in his favor to enter WWII. He wanted to, but it wouldn't have been the popular thing for him to do.
He withheld oil from Japan. Some people think that he did so in order to get Japan to react, but he didn't think they would react to the extreme that they did. But after they bombed Pearl Harbor, we didn't go after Japan first, we went to Germany.
That was more of a strategic move, the other two you mention. The world wasn't at war and they were events that unexpectedly happened which leaves the doors open for all kinds of theories.
I think it's obvious Cuba was behind JFK. The US tried to kill Castro (the bay of pigs). So if someone tried to have you killed and failed what would you do? In theory, kill them before they try to kill you again.
25 downvotes on this? Can someone point out where I am wrong?
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:38 pm to WestCoastAg
There is absolutely no way in hell FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be bombed.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 7:57 pm to OMLandshark
JFK - CIA hit to get Nam going
FDR - knew something was up, ok with it to get us in war, wasn't expecting what he got.
GWB 9/11 - see above.
93 - passengers crashed it, debris field to tight for any other way.
Challenger - fact - they knew the o rings would fail and let them go anyway.
Columbia - see above
FDR - knew something was up, ok with it to get us in war, wasn't expecting what he got.
GWB 9/11 - see above.
93 - passengers crashed it, debris field to tight for any other way.
Challenger - fact - they knew the o rings would fail and let them go anyway.
Columbia - see above
This post was edited on 1/15/19 at 7:59 pm
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:06 pm to OMLandshark
Google "The McCollum Memo" regarding Pearl Harbor, Interesting reading.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:18 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
It’s suspicious to me that all the valuable ships were out, and all the WWI retro ships were still in Pearl Harbor.
Except it wasn’t widespread knowledge of how valuable they were until later. Even after Pearl, there are examples of capital ships being bested by naval aviation to the great shock of navies.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:20 pm to keks tadpole
quote:
Challenger - fact - they knew the o rings would fail and let them go anyway.
Even with the optics of the teacher on board? That is way crazier than FDR knowing about Pearl Harbor.
Posted on 1/15/19 at 8:26 pm to OMLandshark
They rolled the dice. They sold the premise of a bus to space and had to keep up the timetable at all costs.
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