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CO2 saturation and quantum physics (science board)

Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:19 pm
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36188 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:19 pm
This is the fourth post in the series. The previous post connected radiation escaping to space with the atmosphere's temperature profile. Here is why adding CO2 still changes that radiation even when some absorption lines are already opaque.

1. What quantum mechanics actually says

A molecule absorbs infrared radiation through allowed transitions between its energy levels. The photon's energy must match the transition: energy difference = h × frequency, where h is Planck's constant. The transition must also satisfy the relevant selection rules; matching energy alone is not enough.

CO2's bending vibration produces an important absorption band near 15 micrometres. Rotation adds many closely spaced transitions. Molecular motion and collisions give the lines finite widths. These are measured spectral properties, not an assumption that CO2 absorbs every wavelength equally.

HITRAN's spectroscopy definitions and data parameters
MIT spectroscopy lecture: CO2 vibrations, lines and broadening

2. An opaque line centre is not an opaque spectrum

For an incident beam at a particular frequency, its transmitted fraction is:

transmitted fraction = exp(-optical depth)

Optical depth measures the absorbing material along the path, weighted by its absorption strength. Holding temperature, pressure and path fixed, doubling the CO2 amount doubles its contribution to optical depth.

For example, increasing optical depth from 1 to 2 reduces direct transmission from about 37% to 14%. Where optical depth is already 10, direct transmission is already tiny and adding more makes little difference to that beam. Both statements can be true at different frequencies.

The strong line centres can therefore be saturated while weaker parts of the band still respond. Adding CO2 primarily adds absorbers; it does not need to produce a large increase in total air pressure or individual line widths.

3. The atmosphere also emits

The transmission equation alone is not a complete atmosphere. Each layer emits infrared radiation as well as absorbing it, and collisions exchange energy among the gas molecules.

What reaches space includes radiation from the surface and from many atmospheric layers, attenuated along the way. More CO2 changes the layers and temperatures that contribute at each frequency. In much of the troposphere, temperature decreases with height, so shifting the contribution upward can reduce outgoing radiation at the existing temperatures.

That is not a claim that every wavelength comes from one altitude or that every atmospheric layer gets colder with height. The stratosphere matters too. The calculation integrates the whole spectrum and atmospheric profile. The surface and atmosphere then adjust until outgoing energy again balances absorbed sunlight.

Pierrehumbert: Infrared radiation and planetary temperature

4. Diminishing returns are still returns

Over a useful range around Earth's present conditions, CO2 radiative forcing is approximately logarithmic:

change in forcing = a × ln(C/C0)

C/C0 is the ratio of final to initial CO2 concentration. Equal percentage increases therefore give approximately equal forcing increments. Doubling adds a × ln(2); another doubling adds approximately the same again. That is different from adding the same number of ppm each time, and it is not a temperature formula.

The coefficient depends on the forcing definition and atmospheric conditions. A doubling produces a forcing of roughly 4 W/m². Understanding the logarithmic relationship requires the distribution of absorption strengths across the band; merely saying 'the lapse rate' does not derive it.

Romps et al.: Why the forcing from carbon dioxide scales as the logarithm of its concentration

5. There is an observational check

Feldman and colleagues analysed infrared spectra at sites in Oklahoma and Alaska over 2000-2010. Using those measurements, other atmospheric observations and radiative-transfer calculations, they isolated an increase in clear-sky downward surface radiation associated with the roughly 22 ppm CO2 increase: about 0.2 W/m² per decade at each site.

That is a local surface result, not the global top-of-atmosphere forcing or total greenhouse effect. It nevertheless checks the claim that additional CO2 has no radiative effect.

Feldman et al.: Observational determination of surface radiative forcing by CO2

So 'some lines already absorb nearly everything' is a valid observation. 'Therefore adding CO2 cannot change Earth's energy balance' does not follow. The question is what happens across the full spectrum in an atmosphere that both absorbs and emits.
Posted by Tyga Woods
South Central Jupiter Island, FL
Member since Sep 2016
43531 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:35 pm to
M
Period
Fresh
Comma
Your wife is my
Baby mama
Posted by Cosmo
glassman's guest house
Member since Oct 2003
133705 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:38 pm to
These pretzels are makin me thirsty
Posted by RummelTiger
Official TD Sauces Club Member
Member since Aug 2004
94681 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:39 pm to
quote:

The question is what happens across the full spectrum in an atmosphere that both absorbs and emits.


Posted by SuperSaint
Sorting Out OT BS Since '2007'
Member since Sep 2007
152201 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:40 pm to
quote:

the full spectrum
LSUCoyote Board
Posted by Breauxsif
Washington
Member since May 2012
23978 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:41 pm to
Posted by Spocks Brain
Member since Nov 2025
584 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:41 pm to
I am so glad you are back man!
Posted by notiger1997
Metairie
Member since May 2009
62240 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:41 pm to
My arse was saturated with shite this morning.
Posted by RummelTiger
Official TD Sauces Club Member
Member since Aug 2004
94681 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:42 pm to
quote:

LSUCoyote Board


:shivers:
Posted by Tyga Woods
South Central Jupiter Island, FL
Member since Sep 2016
43531 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:46 pm to
quote:

the full spectrum

LSUCoyote Board


He’s gonna bjj the frick outta u
Posted by TigahTeeth
Georgia
Member since Feb 2016
6695 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:48 pm to
What do you call a black man on the moon?



























An astronaut, you racist pos!
Posted by SingleMalt1973
Member since Feb 2022
26293 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 9:55 pm to
Posted by SuperSaint
Sorting Out OT BS Since '2007'
Member since Sep 2007
152201 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 10:11 pm to
He ain’t yucking my yums
Posted by Tyga Woods
South Central Jupiter Island, FL
Member since Sep 2016
43531 posts
Posted on 10/28/26 at 10:13 pm to
Posted by BFANLC
The Beach
Member since Oct 2007
24821 posts
Posted on 10/29/26 at 12:19 am to
You've brought this to the right place....someone on here, while intoxicated, is going to show you how to time travel.
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36188 posts
Posted on 10/29/26 at 12:30 am to
quote:


I am so glad you are back man!


Thanks! Was distracted for a while with tragedy, then a really bad divorce, and last but not least, a multilevel cervical fusion including a complete corpectomy of the C6 vertebra. Could have been worse. Glad to be back to normal (except for the Jerry rigged cervical spine) and shitposting with every single one of you giant dbags. It's like old times!


This post was edited on 10/29/26 at 12:32 am
Posted by Cheese Grits
Wherever I lay my hat is my home
Member since Apr 2012
65111 posts
Posted on 10/29/26 at 1:18 am to
quote:

4. Diminishing returns are still returns


We talking the Law of Diminishing Returns or a point made on this concept / discussion as it applies in Economics?




If this is true at some point in the process diminishing returns will eventually become negative returns. If so, when do you hit negative returns in this process / cycle?

On a second point it is not clear if we are dealing with linear or exponential plotting on the x,y axis?


For the "hookers and blow" folks on here, think of what we have been told about cocaine, where your first hit is the best you will ever do and with greater use the high diminishes. Hence diminishing returns until you go negative and decline or die.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
60918 posts
Posted on 10/29/26 at 9:46 am to
quote:

The question is what happens across the full spectrum in an atmosphere that both absorbs and emits.


That's a huge question, the most important question, and what most people (on both sides) miss when trying to back their stance.

Atmospheric levels, deforestation, radiative forcing, the fricking sun, other gases, etc. - they (and so many other things) are all non-static data points.
Posted by wareaglepete
Siberia
Member since Dec 2012
20305 posts
Posted on 10/29/26 at 10:15 am to
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36188 posts
Posted on 10/30/26 at 8:23 am to
I mean that each additional ppm produces a smaller forcing increment. A diminishing positive increment does not have to become negative.

For the approximate relationship in the post,

?F = a × ln(C/C0), with a > 0,

the slope is dF/dC = a/C > 0, while d²F/dC² = -a/C² < 0.

So the curve keeps rising while its slope decreases. There is no point where this formula turns downward. For example, doubling from 400 to 800 ppm and doubling from 800 to 1600 ppm give the same increment, a × ln(2), in this approximation. That is different from adding another 400 ppm each time.

If both axes are linear, forcing versus CO2 concentration is a rising, concave-down logarithmic curve. If the concentration axis is logarithmic and the forcing axis is linear, it becomes a straight line. It is not exponential growth on linear axes.

The logarithmic approximation has a limited physical range; I am not extrapolating it to arbitrary concentrations or using it as a temperature formula. The spectroscopy and radiative-transfer calculations behind it are discussed here:

Romps, Seeley and Edman: Why the forcing from carbon dioxide scales as the logarithm of its concentration
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