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Started By
Message
re: Birmingham terminates incentives for Top Golf due to TG’s decision to not hire...
Posted on 4/14/20 at 11:55 am to Chef Free Gold Bloom
Posted on 4/14/20 at 11:55 am to Chef Free Gold Bloom
quote:
This kind of ridiculous government involvement leads to this:
it is not government involvement. It was a government incentive option. The private company declined the option. What part of this do you not understand?
1
Posted on 4/14/20 at 11:57 am to StringedInstruments
Odds are Top Golf looked at the proposals for subs and realized that 30% of the cost (assumed because what "30% participation" means isn't well defined) to receive a max of 6% back just wasn't enough to over come the pricing they received from the minority owned companies. So they only "abided" by as much as they would have anyway without the "incentive".
Odds are (because of contracts like these and friends in place to award these types of contracts) most of the minority firms they got pricing from would have combined to cost more than the incentive would have provided back so they went with the other contractors. IE. either in the direct price quoted, time construction schedule quoted (and the money potential loss on delayed operations), or through multipliers assigned to "hidden cost and damages" that the proposing firm was known to have. I have seen this numerous times where contractor A is 5% higher on a bid but contractor B is known to cost 10% more than their proposals (either through multiple change, delays, workforce issues,...). So in those cases company B always has a 10% multiplier added to their pricing. This isn't as common with government work compared to private, however there is a reason "Lowest Responsible bidder" is suppose to be included with government contracts.
I doubt Top Golf really cares. If they aren't doing cost analysis like this prior to contract awards I would be highly surprised and disappointed. ROI/C drives almost everything on big projects like this.
Odds are (because of contracts like these and friends in place to award these types of contracts) most of the minority firms they got pricing from would have combined to cost more than the incentive would have provided back so they went with the other contractors. IE. either in the direct price quoted, time construction schedule quoted (and the money potential loss on delayed operations), or through multipliers assigned to "hidden cost and damages" that the proposing firm was known to have. I have seen this numerous times where contractor A is 5% higher on a bid but contractor B is known to cost 10% more than their proposals (either through multiple change, delays, workforce issues,...). So in those cases company B always has a 10% multiplier added to their pricing. This isn't as common with government work compared to private, however there is a reason "Lowest Responsible bidder" is suppose to be included with government contracts.
I doubt Top Golf really cares. If they aren't doing cost analysis like this prior to contract awards I would be highly surprised and disappointed. ROI/C drives almost everything on big projects like this.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 11:59 am to MrLarson
quote:Pretty easy to get around this alleged city mandate to use 30% black owned subs to build in the city. Seems pointless if that were true.
think the article plainly states how.
Agree to the terms on the front side, run you project how you see fit then lose the incentives once the project is finished.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:00 pm to Chef Free Gold Bloom
quote:
This kind of ridiculous government involvement leads to this:
Yea, the minority women really messed that job up
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:09 pm to Rouge
quote:
it is not government involvement. It was a government incentive option. The private company declined the option. What part of this do you not understand?
Top Golf did what was best for Top Golf. They just failed to meet the city’s goal and thus didn’t get the prize (a tax break).
Unfortunately for the mayor and city council a lot of their friends didn’t get to milk the cow.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:15 pm to doubleb
quote:
30% is a very large portion of a major construction project
30% DBE participation is the norm. The problem with dealing with DBEs, especially on federal projects, is that they know it is very hard to get rid of them. They know they have you by the balls.
At the airport, we had a DBE hold us hostage. He wanted something like $0.50 more a square foot than what his contract stated. This was for over a million square feet. The DBE coordinator wouldn't allow us to just kick him off the site, but he was refusing to work unless we paid him the 50 cents extra. It was fricking up our schedule. We finally just kicked him off the job, hired another DBE - paying him 10 cents more than the other guy was originally getting - and figured we'd deal with it later.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:20 pm to StringedInstruments
If I understand correctly, TG played it perfectly. If the only incentive offered by a shithole city required a level of minority contracts, then go ahead and sign the deal and see what happens. If there are enough qualified, dependable minority contractors available to complete your project satisfactorily, then great, cash in your rebates. If not in your best interest, forget the minority mandates and the rebates.
I seriously doubt that TG needed the incentives to make this venue a success.
I seriously doubt that TG needed the incentives to make this venue a success.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:22 pm to StringedInstruments
Birmingham 
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:24 pm to Malik Agar
quote:
I'd sue the shite out of them for that and argue that Birmingham is majority black /white people are a minority. Those dumb shits "in charge" of the place can all eat a dick and go to Africa if they want to pull this bull shite. Anyways, Alabama (and every other state) should make race/sex/religious government contracts like this illegal. Birmingham is only pulling this because somebody's "cuz" didn't get a check.
Typical response and up votes from the Village Idiots on this board LOL!! While I agree that contracts like this shouldn't be needed, but rest assured if the contract went to a Non Minority, (white Male),owner contractor he'd hire a bunch of cheap labor illegal Mexican's to do the work and scoop the cash! Then you guys would be B!$*HING about how the wall is not beening built fast enough LOL!!
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:30 pm to StringedInstruments
And if TG had snubbed the city’s “incentive” at the beginning if the project, imagine the hassle and bureaucratic bullshite that would have rained down. Smart move to get the city behind you with a tentative promise that was too costly to keep and could be ignored until the job was done.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:31 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
...minority-owned firms for construction projects.
Good move by Birmingham. If they must give out corporate welfare (incentives - LOL), it should benefit everyone not just their buddy contractors.
And I'm sure Top Golf considers itself pro "Free market".
Posted on 4/14/20 at 12:49 pm to StringedInstruments
Any city getting a top golf is a big deal. Bham just screwed that up. Dang
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:20 pm to lsu13lsu
I watched this crap first hand last year.
Company A wins contract to build a large cast in place parking deck.
Company A awards turnkey subcontract to company B.
Company B awards vendor/supplier POs for materials and issues POs.
Company C (material supplier) executes PO.
Company B contacts Company C and says “hold up on executing that, it will need to be invoiced to the never before heard of Company D. We were just notified that the city is requiring Company D, a MBE, to be invoiced directly from suppliers rather than us being invoiced.” Company B then has to enter into a joint check agreement with Company D because Company D has no credit history.
Throughout the project, Company D performs one task with a work crew of 15 men. Company D’s crew worked 1 day out of a 6 month schedule. But hey, they participated!
Every month, Company B reviews all invoices and notes any short pays or backcharges and sends to Company D owner to sign off on before release of payment. Invoices go to Company D which are actually being paid by Company B under a Joint check.
The entire structure is built by Company B. All PMs and PEs , field supervision, and laborers on the job work for Company B. Company D does nothing and the owner gets a fat check.
The owner is very well connected for at least 40 years to the City’s political class. The city’s political class is black demorcrat. I know that is shocking.
Company A wins contract to build a large cast in place parking deck.
Company A awards turnkey subcontract to company B.
Company B awards vendor/supplier POs for materials and issues POs.
Company C (material supplier) executes PO.
Company B contacts Company C and says “hold up on executing that, it will need to be invoiced to the never before heard of Company D. We were just notified that the city is requiring Company D, a MBE, to be invoiced directly from suppliers rather than us being invoiced.” Company B then has to enter into a joint check agreement with Company D because Company D has no credit history.
Throughout the project, Company D performs one task with a work crew of 15 men. Company D’s crew worked 1 day out of a 6 month schedule. But hey, they participated!
Every month, Company B reviews all invoices and notes any short pays or backcharges and sends to Company D owner to sign off on before release of payment. Invoices go to Company D which are actually being paid by Company B under a Joint check.
The entire structure is built by Company B. All PMs and PEs , field supervision, and laborers on the job work for Company B. Company D does nothing and the owner gets a fat check.
The owner is very well connected for at least 40 years to the City’s political class. The city’s political class is black demorcrat. I know that is shocking.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:22 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
We don’t discriminate or allow it
quote:
Also, we prefer if you hire women or non-whites
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:22 pm to FLTech
quote:
Any city getting a top golf is a big deal. Bham just screwed that up. Dang
It's been open almost 2 years now.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:25 pm to USMCTIGER1970
quote:
if the contract went to a Non Minority, (white Male),owner contractor he'd hire a bunch of cheap labor illegal Mexican's to do the work and scoop the cash!
Wait, are you saying that women and minority-owned businesses in the construction industry don't use such labor?
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:26 pm to The Spleen
quote:
It's been open almost 2 years now.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:39 pm to boxcarbarney
My point is it takes quite a few DBEs to reach 30%. You can’t just sub the job to a plumbing contractor or electrical contractor and get to 30%. It takes more than that.
But often a large sub will sub some of his scope to a DBE and the DBE will just but the electrical gear, the chillers or the emergency generator and that’s it.
But often a large sub will sub some of his scope to a DBE and the DBE will just but the electrical gear, the chillers or the emergency generator and that’s it.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:46 pm to The Spleen
quote:
It's been open almost 2 years now.
This isn't the first time this has come up for TG. I know the City was pissed before they ever opened because they weren't using minority subs that was part of the contract.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 1:54 pm to PearlJam
quote:
They made an agreement with the city to get a benefit. Apparently, they didn't comply with the requirements of the agreement, so they don't get the benefit. I don't see the issue.
30% DBE goal is a bit extreme. They're probably wasn't 30% of that project for a DBE to do. And likely, the it wasn't a 30% requirement, but more a 30% goal with proof of good faith efforts.
Yes, DBE's requirements are unethical at best.
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