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Message
re: Alton Sterling shooting - discussion thread
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:26 pm to LSUTANGERINE
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:26 pm to LSUTANGERINE
quote:
For the record, I have not mentioned or implied race as an issue in this incident.
quote:
Posted by
LSUTANGERINE
+
ignoring facts to try and push own bias
=
quote:
implied race as an issue
0
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:26 pm to UptownnMike
quote:Thanks for that new link.
Here's the link to the new video LINK For those who didn't get a look
It still doesn't quite show definitively he was going for a gun, but it definitely appeared to be some kind of struggle between him and the cop that did not shoot.
Certainly seems like a safe assumption that he was going for the gun that he allegedly had.
As with Mike Brown, this definitely isn't playing out to be the guy you want to protest/riot for based on what we know so far.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:26 pm to slackster
quote:
They knew he was armed. If he goes into his pocket you shoot him. Seems a little more straightforward than going to the ground where any and all actions are life-threatening once the gun is visible.
So trying to arrest the guy without killing him is a bad idea and pulling a gun and waiting for him to give you a reason to shoot him is a good idea?
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:26 pm to slackster
quote:
I honestly don't know,
Best thing about the OT overall (not specifically your post) is that people will say "I don't know and have no training or knowledge on this subject." Then in the next sentence make conclusions and unabashedly criticize experts in that field for their decisions.
Been happening in this thread all day.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:27 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
quote:
You are actually suggesting that cops should wait and make it a quick draw competition?
No. I'm suggesting they draw their weapon as he's standing there unfazed from two rounds of a Taser.
You said yourself that apprehend him in those conditions is very difficult because of his size. This would be ENTIRELY different if they had no clue he was armed, but that isn't the case (or presumably isn't the case given the dispatch call).
We've seen two videos. Would you recommend tackling him to the ground in that situation with only two officers present?
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:27 pm to shel311
quote:
As with Mike Brown, this definitely isn't playing out to be the guy you want to protest/riot for based on what we know so far.
sadly, this won't matter
just like people will still tell you mike brown had his hands up and got shot
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:29 pm to DrSteveBrule
quote:Maybe not this story, but if you don't think that the average black person has it a bit rougher than the average white person, then man, I didn't think they made people that naïve nowadays.
That's complete BS. White people who don't comply with white cops and are armed/reach for their weapons get shot too. It's just not the national media headline. This isn't about race.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:29 pm to RB10
quote:
He's been saying that for a while now. Going from taser to tackling the guy was "needlessly" escalating the situation, but pulling out their weapons wouldn't have been doing so. That's about as arse-backwards as it gets.
:sigh:
Tackling a man who is very large and armed is a better choice than pulling out your weapon from a distance. Is that your stance?
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:30 pm to slackster
quote:Where is the other video? I've seen the one filmed by a person sitting in the passenger seat of another vehicle.
We've seen two videos. Would you recommend tackling him to the ground in that situation with only two officers present?
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:30 pm to slackster
quote:Eh, idk. You don't want to give the perp a chance at getting a shot off. I think the cops saw an opportunity to subdue him without drawing weapons and tried to take it. Alton ended up partially under the car, which made restraining his right arm difficult. This ended up escalating the situation when they saw the gun was also on his right side and his arm was not restrained.
If you and I had guns and were authorized to apprehend a man his size who was also armed, I'd like to think we'd avoid a physical altercation unless he attacked us. If the Tasers don't work and he's just standing there (as he was in the first video), tackling him seems unwise at best, and I say that regardless of the benefit of hindsight
This post was edited on 7/6/16 at 4:31 pm
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:31 pm to slackster
quote:We can argue protocol or right/wrong, but I don't even think it's up for debate that what they did put themselves more in harm's way than other options. Not sure how to debate that otherwise.
I understand your point, but what they did failed as well. My contention is that taking him to the ground took it to a level that may or may not have been avoided by keeping things upright and at a distance. He wasn't a thread to the police or the public at that very point in the situation. The gun was in his pocket and he was standing there. They may have followed protocol to the letter, and if so, so be it. I honestly don't know, but it isn't a decision I would make.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:31 pm to slackster
quote:
f you and I had guns and were authorized to apprehend a man his size who was also armed, I'd like to think we'd avoid a physical altercation unless he attacked us. If the Tasers don't work and he's just standing there (as he was in the first video), tackling him seems unwise at best, and I say that regardless of the benefit of hindsight.
So what would you do exactly? You're sent out to arrest this guy waving a gun and causing problems and he's not listening to anything other than force. What do you do? let him walk?
You draw a gun and tell him to get on the ground, he still doesnt. then what?
This post was edited on 7/6/16 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:31 pm to Boagni Swamp
quote:
Why exactly?
Because two officers are trying to subdue a man they have given every chance to. He has a gun and is still actively resisting. If you wanna argue if he was going for the gun or not fin, but its obvious the officers felt he was.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:31 pm to JBeam
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:32 pm to 50_Tiger
quote:Definitely a bit more clear.
2nd video paints a decent picture. Cops are trying to subdue him. One of em obviously keys on the gun in his right pocket. The other unholstered his weapon and gives him a final warning to stop moving or else essentially. He didn't stop, pow pow. The End.
The 2nd cop says he has a gun, and while you can't technically see the gun, right after he says it, a struggle between him and the perp immediately ensued. Then at the very end, the cop pulled the gun out of his pocket, correct?
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:33 pm to shel311
quote:
We can argue protocol or right/wrong, but I don't even think it's up for debate that what they did put themselves more in harm's way than other options. Not sure how to debate that otherwise.
So what could they have done that wouldn't have "put themselves more in harm's way than other options"? What are those other options?
slackster has offered up the cops pulling their weapons on the guy after he was tased and still didn't comply to them. IMO that leaves you open to get shot with a quickness and restraining him at least gives you the opportunity to try to physically disarm him without giving him a window to shoot you.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:33 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
They were going to have to put their hands on him at some point to get him into cuffs and into a car either way.
Probably, but it is quite obvious that the two of them could not handle him in this situation.
quote:
Then what would you have done? I ask this because I see continual criticism of what they did but nobody can come up with a viable alternative to what they would've done in that same situation.
Not knowing what the protocol is, I would have drawn my weapon and awaited back up. If I'm not certain I can handle him, I'm not trying to be a hero. He isn't threatening me. He isn't brandishing a weapon at this point. He isn't even moving to be honest. Pull out your weapon from a distance and wait until you have the manpower to apprehend him more efficiently. If he goes into his pocket you shoot him, just as they did on the ground.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:33 pm to slackster
quote:
Tackling a man who is very large and armed is a better choice than pulling out your weapon from a distance. Is that your stance?
When trying to control a situation? Yes.
Unless you want to tell me people tend to calm down when weapons are drawn, and I'm not just talking about the suspect. If you honestly believe that then you're not even worth arguing with.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:33 pm to rt3
quote:
Chants of "Hands up, Dont shoot", outside of the Triple S store in #BatonRouge #AltonSterling
You just cannot make that shite up. Dude is tased and fights with two cops...has a gun on him...hands up don't shoot (after that was shown to be a false narrative in the first place in Ferguson).
Posted on 7/6/16 at 4:33 pm to UptownnMike
quote:
Here's the link to the new video LINK
For those who didn't get a look.
That video certainly gives betater perspective into the second burst of shots. It actually kind of looks like he might have grabbed the cop on top's gun before the discharge.
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