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re: Official Avengers: Endgame SPOILERS/Discussion/Reviews Thread
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:31 pm to Volvagia
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:31 pm to Volvagia
quote:
How are different timelines and realities generated if not by things going a different path.
Now Loki doesn't get sent immediately to Asgardian prison, and additional effort to find him will take place that the characters otherwise wouldn't have done.
It is now highly likely he isn't a guest during the Dark Elf invasion, the consequences of which means he doesn't have the change to bond with his brother in shared grief, which is what begins to nudge him towards a lighter path.
That's exactly what I'm saying. You're (presumably) arguing that only the removal of a stone can generate these different realities. The Time Stone and the Mind Stone are taken into the Quantum Realm and out of that reality. The Space Stone isn't. When the Time Stone and Mind Stone are returned, according to your arguments, that alternate reality should therefore dissolve since the stones are once again present.
Yet in your chart you still have the 2012 Space Stone branch even though that stone is never taken out of that reality.
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 1:34 pm
2
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:35 pm to Cs
quote:
So using that logic, what happens when Thanos destroys the stones at the beginning of the film?
There will probably be gradual ongoing changes to the existing universe in a universe without the stones.
You'll probably start to see odd things and changes.
The universe may try to compensate by bringing back cosmic entities like the Celestials or The Devourer of Worlds.
You could see an increase in Cosmic Rays.
Wild magic may start to pop up in unexpected places like Latveria.
The human race may even start to mutate in astonishing ways.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:35 pm to Cs
quote:
At some point, Steve has to go back in time for the first time. Meaning he woke up from the ice with no "other" version of himself present. Peggy marries someone else. He goes back in time with no older version of himself sitting on the bench.
Then we have another sequence where he comes back, marries Peggy, lives a life with her while his younger self his sitting in the ice, wakes up, becomes an Avenger, then heads back in time while he sits on the bench knowing that he's going to go back in time to live a life with Peggy.
At some point, that "loop" has to be initiated. And the only way it can be initiated is with a distinctly different sequence of events.
I don't see why he can't go back in time in 2023 and stay there. It doesn't change any of the events through 2023 in my theory, but it does allow him to be there in 2023 on the bench.
Like I said earlier, I'm of the belief the time is all relative to the present version of yourself. Cap goes back, but he's still 2023 Cap, and he lives his life until 2023 when he comes to the bench. Due to the way time travel works relative to those who don't time travel, it only took 5 seconds for the Hulk, Falcon, and Bucky. In those 5 seconds for them, present day Cap experienced an entire life.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:35 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
Because the writers don’t understand their own time travel mechanics.
The idea that they could go back “right as the stones were taken and not disturb the timeline” assumes that they are preventing an alternative timeline from being created. Which presupposes that that timeline is “being put on hold”. This is contradictory to the idea that every time you enter a timeline at any point you’re creating an alternate reality to begin with.
And even then, if creating an alternate timeline happens every time you go in the past, it should also create a new one when you enter back in your own timeline. Every entry point into a timeline or different reality, whether it’s your past, your present, or your future, should create a new timeline from the one in which the entry point never happened. This makes time travel ultimately self defeating unless you’re okay with a bunch of alternate realities in which nothing gets fixed, but for story telling purposes, it’s easiest to do the “time heist” that Endgame did.
This is how the Marvel Multiverse has always been. They weren't just jumping back and forth in time, they actually were creating alternate universes every time they did something. But in the Marvel comics EVERYONE creates an alternate universe with every decision they make. There are an infinite amount of alternate universes in existence at all times based on the infinite amount of choices every being makes in their entire life times.
That's the basis of the "What If?" comic series and this movie is probably going to be used to establish the TV series they've already announced.
And in all the arguing about time travel vs alternate reality travel I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Old Man Steve giving Sam the shield fully establishes he traveled in alternate realities. Where did that shield come from if it was destroyed by Thanos? He didn't make a new one, in the Marvel Multiverse Captain America's shield is unique, each universe only gets one. If he took it from the past and brought it to the future then it wouldn't have been available for him to use against Thanos. It had to come from an alternate universe.
I took the Ancient One's warning about returning the stones to their proper universe/reality as a safeguard for that particular reality, not for ALL of reality. That's why she said "I can't let you destroy my reality to save your own." Now that does beg the question; what happens to the main MCU reality if Thanos really did destroy that reality's Infinite Stones? Probably well eventually find out that they weren't really destroyed, just made almost impossible to obtain again.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:35 pm to BOSCEAUX
quote:Only until Cap took them back. Then they ceased to exist in 2023.
They were brought back to where they were taken from but they existed in 2023.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:36 pm to Cs
Again, not my arguments.
Trying to make sense of what the movie presented.
You are looking at it from the focus of people going back in time.
Think of it instead as saying this:
Timeline forks can only sustainably occur when there is an infinity stone involved.
You deciding to go left instead of right isn't enough to base a universe off of.
The path through the timeline of one of the core elements of reality is.
Loki flitting away caused a diverant timeline.
Now where the divergence was is an unanswerable question.
Going back in time?
Ant man being a little slow in executing the plan?
Stark going for the stairs?
I don't know.
But the film seems to be arguing hard against having simultaneous timelines of every possible permutation of every choice like the comic books have.
Trying to make sense of what the movie presented.
You are looking at it from the focus of people going back in time.
Think of it instead as saying this:
Timeline forks can only sustainably occur when there is an infinity stone involved.
You deciding to go left instead of right isn't enough to base a universe off of.
The path through the timeline of one of the core elements of reality is.
Loki flitting away caused a diverant timeline.
Now where the divergence was is an unanswerable question.
Going back in time?
Ant man being a little slow in executing the plan?
Stark going for the stairs?
I don't know.
But the film seems to be arguing hard against having simultaneous timelines of every possible permutation of every choice like the comic books have.
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:40 pm to Merck
I appreciate the fact we've debated the mechanics of time travel in a movie about super heroes for a few dozen pages. 
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:40 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
The human race may even start to mutate in astonishing ways.
Would not be surprised if they use the snap or resnap to explain them into the MCU.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:51 pm to Cs
Y’all are making it too complicated. At the end of the movie we only have to accept 3 crazy truths:
1. Future Cap was always laying the pipe to Agent Carter in secret for 80 years, we just didn’t know she was a cheating whore to her husband
2. Half the population of every living thing across existence is 5 years out of sync with the other half
3. Cap forgot Bucky existed after slaying poon for 80 years
That’s pretty much it
1. Future Cap was always laying the pipe to Agent Carter in secret for 80 years, we just didn’t know she was a cheating whore to her husband
2. Half the population of every living thing across existence is 5 years out of sync with the other half
3. Cap forgot Bucky existed after slaying poon for 80 years
That’s pretty much it
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:53 pm to slackster
quote:
I appreciate the fact we've debated the mechanics of time travel in a movie about super heroes for a few dozen pages.
It’s a franchise with space wizards, cyborgs, and fricking Thor, and somehow Hawkeye can keep up with all this? Don’t overthink it. It was good and fun.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 1:57 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
It’s a franchise with space wizards, cyborgs, and fricking Thor, and somehow Hawkeye can keep up with all this? Don’t overthink it. It was good and
Exactly. None of these questions remotely bothered me during the film.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:09 pm to slackster
quote:
I don't see why he can't go back in time in 2023 and stay there. It doesn't change any of the events through 2023 in my theory, but it does allow him to be there in 2023 on the bench.
You argued it was like prisoner of Azkaban time travel. If that were the case Stark would've already known Loki would disappear with the time stone in 2012
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:12 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
The human race may even start to mutate in astonishing ways.
They would have to DRASTICALLY change the origin of a certain white-haired elderly Polish man for that to work.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:15 pm to Hawgnsincebirth55
quote:
he never aged the first go around and if you want to say well he was frozen, what about Bucky he’s the same way
I guess you missed the part in The Winter Soldier where, after every mission, they put Barnes on ice.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:15 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
I’d just like to focus on the fact that Captain America’s ultimate goal in life was to be a side piece
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:18 pm to Cs
quote:
Except that you need Pym Particles, and Hank Pym has been adamant about never letting anyone have access to his formula.
Well Cap waltzed right in and grabbed them, also Ghost stole his entire lab pretty easily a couple of times.
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:18 pm to Hester Carries
quote:
My question is about his ability to live in the past. It's that that past shouldn't be attached to this future. He shouldn't be able to travel there by way of the passing of time. He should be in another future
Maybe it was in an alternate timeline with her and then when she died he comes back to his original timeline?
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:19 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
I’d just like to focus on the fact that Captain America’s ultimate goal in life was to be a side piece
That whole thing was out of nowhere.
They had already setup Cap to be with Sharon Carter and Peggy had already moved on and had kids and a family.
For him to go back like that was...just not really in line what what had been set up.
And, like I said, why did Peggy look the same in 1970 as she had in the 1940s when Steve first became Captain America?
I think ultimately the Russos just wanted to close out Cap and Tony.
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 2:20 pm
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:20 pm to tiggerthetooth
quote:
That whole thing was out of nowhere.
They had already setup Cap to be with Sharon Carter and Peggy had already moved on and had kids and a family.
Not really. Cap has always been a beta soy boy compared to Tony (who went out like a stallion) so it makes sense Cap would wanna spend his life being a cuck in the shadows
This post was edited on 4/28/19 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 4/28/19 at 2:23 pm to MF Doom
quote:
You argued it was like prisoner of Azkaban time travel. If that were the case Stark would've already known Loki would disappear with the time stone in 2012
I said it could be. I'm trying to flesh this out as we go.
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