re: Obtuse Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice TD review thread (SPOILERS p5+)

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It also shows you know very little about the numerous portrayals of Batman in graphic novel form. Especially those by Frank Miller.

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Show me a panel where Miller had Batman kill someone? In DKR he instructs the Sons of Batman not to kill, becauae it isn't their way. He didnt kill anyone in All-Star either.

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the haters 

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Mostly hardcore comic book readers I imagine

Ok, got back this afternoon, so here we go. Honestly, it wasn't THAT bad, it was bad, but I don't think it's worse than some of the movies it ends up behind. And I thought in the beginning it actually had a chance to be as god as Man of Steel, but some colossal mistakes ended up making it worse.

But I'll be honest. I had absolutely no fun watching it and I felt like nothing changed. There was nothing to learn. Nothing to gain. It just was. Like a commercial. A commercial for more DC movies. There is no movie to equate it to, however, as these characters, the hype, it's just a weird situation. So let's get down to it. Some good stuff.

1) Bad - The pacing - Can Zack Snyder hold a scene for longer than 90 seconds? I think the cumulative longest scene outside of the final fight was Luthor's party, and even that was only a few minutes. The cutting was infuriating. He couldn't let anything sit for more than a second or two. This made everything have absolutely no impact. Nothing resonated. Nothing was memorable - outside of some of the action sequences.

2) Bad - The Amount of StoryLines - Just wow. There were at least 6 different stories playing throughout the film and none of them really held. I won't get into the specifics of what they were - since that is a common complaint - but the amount of stories lead directly to the pacing issues. And I mean, Snyder is no Tarantino (who CAN tell 5 different stories and have them make sense). Think about the thing - The entire issue with Senator Finch is that Snyder needed that backstory - Just to have the moment where she sees the "Granny's Peach Tea," and knows what's going on. The problem with that is - It wasn't impactful and it took way too long to build up to that moment which sucks because....

3) Good - Some of the Stories Were Good - I might be in the minority, but I liked the Senate hearing storyline. If the entire movie was dealing with repercussions of MoS -- Building up to the bombing (without evil Lex Luthor until you find out in the end) and a Batman and Superman Showdown more worthy - That might have been a good film. Let Superman be featured more than 15 minutes (did anyone else feel like he was barely in the movie?) Actually give Lois something important to do, etc. There was a good story there. I also liked the interactions with Gadot and the setup for JL, but again, there was just too much going on, which stinks because....

4) Good - Some Parts of Characters - Affleck was a pretty good Batman, certainly Top Tier. I was surprised by Gadot and was not thrown off by her size. Irons was great, and I'm again in the minority, I actually liked Lex. A little. Yes it was too much Joker, but I liked where they were going. I think they rushed it though. I would have rathered a more composed Luthor who gets unhinged through the film, but also....

5) Bad - Other Parts of Characters - Cavill wasn't given nearly enough to do. Lois Lane is one of the worst characters in all of comic book films. I hate her. She offers nothing but plot devices. NOTHING. Luthor knew way too much way too fast. Not only that, he wasn't brilliant. At all. The only way Snyder knew how to make him seem smart was to give him the uncanny ability o omnipotence. There was no reason behind his plan. No reason for him to know anything that he knew. It was just all plot service. He had to know it to advance the plot, so he knew it. Simple as that. Affleck was way too emo as Batman. Give me Timm's Bruce. The problem then becomes...

6) Bad - DC stands for Disavow Contentment - Joyless. Humorless. Unfunny. Just a dour, oppressive world they live in. The only one having fun is Alfred and it's probably because he's always drinking. The movie is the same tone for EVERYTHING. There is no variance. That makes the good parts of the characters lack any impact. And I felt like NONE of them were heroes. It's like they hated being heroes (until the very very end). It should and does work for Batman - but every other character feels like that. Even Perry is just a bore. Movies don't have to be wacky and funny, but they have to feel like people love them. I don't think anyone had any fun making that movie.

7) Bad - The Dialog - Either Terrio sucks too or his presence wasn't felt. The amount of awful one-liners was high. There were at least 4 equivalents to lightning toads.

8) Good - The Action Sequences - Snyder can film action, we all know that. The warehouse scene was excellent. As was the opening Metropolis sequences. The thing about that Metropolis sequence is I think that's been the best interpretation of what it feels like to be a mortal among excessively powered superheroes. It was just all downhill from there. Great scene though.

9) Bad - The Overall Story - Doomsday sucked. Superman's end sucked (can we now give up on the "death means nothing in Marvel meme? It took them 4-5 films before that became a thing. We are on film 2 here). Luthor's plan sucked. Bruce changed in this film, which was great, however, given the story - and where we started with weather Batman - There isn't much of a place to go. Do we really think Affleck is in this for 10 more years? Just a dumb place to kick off the series. The dreams were also terrible, although I do like Knightmare Batman, but that added absolutely nothing to story.

I could probably say more, but there are my first thoughts. It wasn't the worst movie ever, if you really think that you haven't seen many films. But it deserves the 29%, it's no way to kick off the DC Universe, and it was totally an un-fun bore for the most part. Snyder just doesn't seem like he likes any of his characters. Even his humans, if I go back to the Senate bombing, there was just nothing. No remorse from Superman. No sensitivity from the director, it was a totally forgotten moment where 100+ people were incinerated. Think about that.
In short, like MoS, it lacked clarity and didn't earn the tone it set forth.

The big problem, and this was expected, the movie and the creative team had no idea what they wanted this to be. Batman movie? Superman movie? Justice League Movie? Real movie? Comic Book movie? I think they tried to do everything and failed, completely. And yeah, get rid of Frank Miller. Unless all the fans are 13 and that's all they want. It was just so juvenile.

Boom. Roasted.

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I was surprised by Gadot and was not thrown off by her size

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I pretty much judged her as too skinny in that bikini scene in Fast and the Furious- and she was, but she put on 17 lbs of muscle for the role and she is thin yet athletic. It wasn't until I saw her in relation to other people that I realized she's a big woman stature and size wise- she just needed some meat on her. She pretty much towers over Snyder and Eisenberg. I thought she did a good job although I wish the final battle was a little more visible

For all the people that complain about Batman killing in this film...

Batman Kill Count

In defense of Snyder, I don't think Affleck's version of Batman ever presented not killing someone as part of his moral code.

ETA: Never mind, I see what you are saying.

just got back from my second viewing and enjoyed it more than my first.

All expectations were gone so just got to really watch it this time.

It really is not a terrible movie. It has its flaws which I think are all down to Snyder and his inability to create characters we'll give a shite about, and pacing.

If he had taken a bit more time (either in run time or just editing other less necessary scenes out) to build the existing characters it would have gone a long long way towards making this movie something really good.

Lots of missed places for simple expositional dialogue that would have helped audiences out.

The Batman/Superman fight is fricking awesome. It really is. It looks cool, it was well structured and it's just a perfect scene for comic book nerds...that said it is totally ruined by the "Martha" moment. How they couldn't come up with a better way out of Bat killing Superman I'll never understand.

Lex's plan (like every other goddamn movie with Lex in it) is baffling. If viewers don't know that Lex Luthor is Superman's enemy you'd watch this movie totally confused as to who, what or why he is. Didn't love Eisenberg's performance but it would've been better had Snyder built his character so just something about him made sense.

Totally cool with how the revealed the JL because I mean how else would you do it- I only wish they'd done it earlier when Bruce is looking at the files rather than when Wonder woman is.

Lois still is just a plot device and it sucks. Snyder just is intent on mangling her and Clark's relationship by never showing us anything that matters or counts- for frick's sake we still don't know why "she's his world." She is just cause they kissed in the first movie? I mean frick Snyder, tighten up the world around your main characters.

Either way, I'm falling into this movie is awesome for fans of the comics and the characters, and just meh for everyone else. I truly this the director's cut release of this movie is going to make me look at it as a movie I love.

I thought the Martha moment between Bruce and Clark was a great to humanize Superman to Bruce. Up until that point I don't think he ever imagined Clark having a mother, etc.

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Watchmen was a fluke

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top 10 movie for me