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Started By
Message
re: First look at Galadriel in Amazon’s The Lord of the Rings series
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:20 pm to Mo Jeaux
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:20 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
You're trying too hard.
No, this
quote:
“Look man, i dont care about why things are the way are. I dont like to think about. You should try thinking less like me. Why you gotta ask so many questions man. A good person doesnt ask why things are the way they are. They simply take them with no reservations comrade.”
Is trying too hard
0
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:21 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
I mean, there was as an actual viking named Geirmund Heljarskinn - also known as the Black Viking because he and his family were mixed race.
And it would take an encyclopedia to explain how that came to happen.
Not just “there can be black Vikings”
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:24 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:Funny you should mention that:
I mean...we all saw how the Hobbit movies were screwed up by adding a bunch of nonsense that had no basis in Tolkien's books. It's not like there's no precedent here.
"adding a bunch of nonsense that had no basis in Tolkien's books" is the exact reason the Tolkien Estate shut down any further development or movies from Peter Jackson. They went off-canon on several things, notably Freckles the Elf (a simple Wood Elf capable of healing on a par with Elrond, one of the Wise). They also tossed Sauron in at a scope he didn't belong, and otherwise took liberties with the story.
If you look into this series, there are stipulations written into the contract stating that they can't deviate from known canon, or otherwise frick with the broad themes.
Again regarding the black Dwarf- LOTR showed the people of Durin's Folk, which is only one of the seven Dwarven Houses. There are 6 other Houses, which haven't been described in great detail, but it has been stated that some look different. And as I stated before, it's also canon that Dwarves from all the Houses eventually sent fighters to Moria. Those that weren't Durin's folk left after the battle, since they weren't attached to that place.
That implies there IS communication between the Houses, and cooperation in times of need.
Simply put- there's quite a bit of room for interpretation in Tolkien's Second Age, without needing to go specifically "off-canon".
One of the distant Dwarve Houses could be dark-skinned, and following classic European standards (which Tolkien seems to be rooted in), members of different Houses could intermarry to promote treaties.
I'm NOT saying that's what this is, but it could fit in that manner.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:27 pm to Scoob
quote:
Again regarding the black Dwarf- LOTR showed the people of Durin's Folk, which is only one of the seven Dwarven Houses. There are 6 other Houses, which haven't been described in great detail, but it has been stated that some look different. And as I stated before, it's also canon that Dwarves from all the Houses eventually sent fighters to Moria. Those that weren't Durin's folk left after the battle, since they weren't attached to that place. That implies there IS communication between the Houses, and cooperation in times of need. Simply put- there's quite a bit of room for interpretation in Tolkien's Second Age, without needing to go specifically "off-canon". One of the distant Dwarve Houses could be dark-skinned, and following classic European standards (which Tolkien seems to be rooted in), members of different Houses could intermarry to promote treaties. I'm NOT saying that's what this is, but it could fit in that manner.
So in short, immigrant dwarf.
I do appreciate you actually developing a justification.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:27 pm to Scoob
Look, I don’t really care about all of this as far as the show is concerned, but the concept of a black dwarf simply doesn’t work based off of environmental factors.
That is largely the reason why they have the same general appearance throughout most fantasy lore (D&D is a great example, and they have the most expansive lore available).
There are no “black” dwarves in D&D even.
It simply doesn’t work, even if there are different dwarf tribes with different appearances. The simple nature of dwarves implies that they remain underground in their mines and subterranean cities away from the sun.
That all aside, I’ll give this show a chance. I don’t expect much from Hollywood nowadays though.
That is largely the reason why they have the same general appearance throughout most fantasy lore (D&D is a great example, and they have the most expansive lore available).
There are no “black” dwarves in D&D even.
It simply doesn’t work, even if there are different dwarf tribes with different appearances. The simple nature of dwarves implies that they remain underground in their mines and subterranean cities away from the sun.
That all aside, I’ll give this show a chance. I don’t expect much from Hollywood nowadays though.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 1:33 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:31 pm to Scoob
quote:
Simply put- there's quite a bit of room for interpretation in Tolkien's Second Age,.
Be careful, according to Landshark this could mean interpreting the Millennium Falcon and My Little Ponies rushing to the Fellowship's defense.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:45 pm to OMLandshark
Is this going to be three or four season of people just walking?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:48 pm to Byron Bojangles III
quote:
what evidence do you have black people do not exist on middle earth?
Hobbit holes didn't have bars on the windows.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:49 pm to Scruffy
quote:So about that-
I mean, the biggest thing is it just doesn’t “fit” the social and environmental characteristics of the species.
There is an actual environmental reason as to why dwarves are light skinned/very pale.
They don’t go out into the sunlight.
Dwarves didn't evolve, they were made by Aule. He made 7 fathers, they decended from them. If he made them magenta, it wouldn't matter environmentally- because they were creations.
And it's pretty well established that Dwarves were the primary travelers on the big Roads, at least by the time of The Hobbit. So yes, they went outside. Often for long periods. They didn't eat stones, they ate meat and grain, and drank beer.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 1:50 pm to boxcarbarney
quote:
Hobbit holes didn't have bars on the windows.
jesusfrickingchrist
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:01 pm to Scoob
quote:And humans were made by Illuvatar, but they clearly diverged/evolved over time.
Dwarves didn't evolve, they were made by Aule.
Not sure what that has to do with anything.
quote:And?
And it's pretty well established that Dwarves were the primary travelers on the big Roads, at least by the time of The Hobbit. So yes, they went outside. Often for long periods. They didn't eat stones, they ate meat and grain, and drank beer.
I didn’t say they didn’t go outside at all.
I am simply stating that, much like how humans clearly changed over time to fit their environments in the LOTR universe, it is clear that dwarves would as well.
The environmental factors don’t fit the notion of black dwarves.
It is simply the way the species was created.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are there any dwarves cities that aren’t underground?
I’m just given general views of the species/race as a whole.
It fits their socioenvironmental reality to be pale/Lighter in color.
It is really the reason that all fantasy lore generally gives dwarves the same look, and pale skin and red hair is pretty apparent within the communities.
Take it for what it is worth.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:02 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Dead on. "He didn't explicitly say that" is the worst possible argument that could be made here.
Consider your post on the first page of this thread:
quote:
Changing established races from Tolkien's lore is an indicator of what the creators of the series are focused on, and should be a concern for any fans of his works.
This is why people give you guys so much shite.
It starts as “OMG I bet they add a black elf. They better not do that! Tolkien explicitly said elves were white!”
No black elves in any of the pictures.
“OMG there’s a black dwarf! Tolkien said dwarves were white! I’m sick of this woke BS!”
Someone points out that Tolkien hadn’t really described the skin tone of dwarves in great detail.
“But Tolkien based his world on Norse and Germanic folklore, and there weren’t any/many black people in those fairly tales!”
…Seriously? So we started off being angry because the show runners might change clearly established races. But now we are angry because the show runners used a black actress for a less clearly established race, because that race was loosely based on fairly tales - created in the dark ages by people who had probably had extremely limited interactions (if any) with black people - which were then adapted by Tolkien 1000 years later to create Middle Earth? That’s the source of outrage now?
Or is it that we are now arguing about the evolutionary/genetic implications of black dwarves in Middle Earth, a world where we don’t question magic, monsters, immortality, or the long term implications of interbreeding between numerous races.
It just seems like there is a group of people on this board that go out of their way to be outraged about this kind of stuff.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:09 pm to theGarnetWay
quote:
I mean, there was as an actual viking named Geirmund Heljarskinn - also known as the Black Viking because he and his family were mixed race.
They weren't "black" though.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:12 pm to lostinbr
quote:
No black elves in any of the pictures.
Umm, What?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:15 pm to Mo Jeaux
Look, we all know how Toklien meant his characters to look and what they were based on. The darkest folks in the series would be, at best, the men from the East, which were probably Middle Eastern looking.
But that shits all beside the point. We knew Amazon would frick up the casting. My big issue is this:
Galadriel wasn't some fricking super girl swordfighter, like it seems they are trying to imply here. She was also basically the most beautiful being in Toklien lore... And sorry, but this chick is borderline ugly. Galadriel also was so powerful because of her magic and her light, not because of armor and swords....
This show is so fricked.
But that shits all beside the point. We knew Amazon would frick up the casting. My big issue is this:
Galadriel wasn't some fricking super girl swordfighter, like it seems they are trying to imply here. She was also basically the most beautiful being in Toklien lore... And sorry, but this chick is borderline ugly. Galadriel also was so powerful because of her magic and her light, not because of armor and swords....
This show is so fricked.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:18 pm to lostinbr
I don’t think this is really that severe of a discussion or at least I hope not. I think it’s:
1. People tired of the forced shite and hence pretty sensitive and salty about the appearance of it; and
2. People like to argue about stupid shite.
ETA: of course, watch the show and see how it goes.
1. People tired of the forced shite and hence pretty sensitive and salty about the appearance of it; and
2. People like to argue about stupid shite.
ETA: of course, watch the show and see how it goes.
This post was edited on 2/10/22 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:23 pm to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
jesusfrickingchrist
Yeah that one is overtly racist.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:23 pm to lostinbr
quote:Absolutely.
Or is it that we are now arguing about the evolutionary/genetic implications of black dwarves in Middle Earth, a world where we don’t question magic, monsters, immortality, or the long term implications of interbreeding between numerous races.
I mean, sure, having a half-dwarf who is black is perfectly fine.
Interbreeding between races is perfectly acceptable and expected.
But there is pretty much a reason why it hasn’t been done in the majority of fantasy lore. It simply doesn’t fit the social and environmental structures that fit.
Interestingly, in a lot of fantasy, there are dark skinned variants of most species, including gnomes, elves, humans, half-dragons, etc., but dwarves are interestingly left out.
Interestingly, there is a subterranean race called the Drow, which is dark skinned with white hair.
Maybe they’ll come up with a black dwarf race at some point.
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:28 pm to safemode
quote:I'm just waiting to see what Dinklage has to say.
Is that Gerard Butler as the dwarf?
Posted on 2/10/22 at 2:32 pm to Jack Ruby
Didn't she fight and even lead parts of the rebellion of the Noldor along with Feanor?
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