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re: 10 Best Defensive Baseball Players of All-Time-
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:49 pm to Lester Earl
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:49 pm to Lester Earl
Sure, they are good, but they aren’t great. If someone invented a defensive metric today, let’s call it Baloo’s Incredible Defensive Stat (BIDS), and we ran the numbers and it kicked back a top three of Bordick, Sanchez, and Bowa, but hey, it ranked Ozzie Smith 11th, you would rightfully mock the ever living shite out of it for being worthless. Seriously, if BIDS were invented today, and came out with those same exact ratings, there’s NO WAY you’d take it the least bit seriously. And rightfully so. Those results are absurd.
BTW – you’re not the least bit concerned by a rating that says five of the best defensive shortstop of ALL TIME are playing right now, including all of the top three? I mean, I threw out current players as a courtesy because that’s so obviously a false positive it would’ve taken you less than a millisecond to mock it had BIDS pumped out those numbers.
The only fielding percentage has is a century of usage. You think identifying pretty good fielders as the best to ever play the game as a positive attribute? Really? If BIDS was brand new, would you be defending it like that?
BTW – you’re not the least bit concerned by a rating that says five of the best defensive shortstop of ALL TIME are playing right now, including all of the top three? I mean, I threw out current players as a courtesy because that’s so obviously a false positive it would’ve taken you less than a millisecond to mock it had BIDS pumped out those numbers.
The only fielding percentage has is a century of usage. You think identifying pretty good fielders as the best to ever play the game as a positive attribute? Really? If BIDS was brand new, would you be defending it like that?
2
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:54 pm to Baloo
Total Zone Ratings all-time top ten SS:
1. Ozzie Smith+ (19) 239 R
2. Mark Belanger (18) 238 R
3. Cal Ripken+ (21) 176 R
4. Luis Aparicio+ (18) 149 R
5. Omar Vizquel (23, 44) 134 R
6. Rey Sanchez (15) 112 R
7. Ozzie Guillen (16) 99 R
8. Roy McMillan (16) 88 R
9. Ron Hansen (15) 87 R
10. Greg Gagne (15) 81 R
Which list has a better top ten? Is this even a question? Also, look at the gap in numbers. It’s really the top two, then Cal, then the next two, then everyone else.
1. Ozzie Smith+ (19) 239 R
2. Mark Belanger (18) 238 R
3. Cal Ripken+ (21) 176 R
4. Luis Aparicio+ (18) 149 R
5. Omar Vizquel (23, 44) 134 R
6. Rey Sanchez (15) 112 R
7. Ozzie Guillen (16) 99 R
8. Roy McMillan (16) 88 R
9. Ron Hansen (15) 87 R
10. Greg Gagne (15) 81 R
Which list has a better top ten? Is this even a question? Also, look at the gap in numbers. It’s really the top two, then Cal, then the next two, then everyone else.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:57 pm to Baloo
quote:
The only fielding percentage has is a century of usage. You think identifying pretty good fielders as the best to ever play the game as a positive attribute? Really? If BIDS was brand new, would you be defending it like that?
Dude, I never said it pin pointed the best defensive SS of all times. Pump the brakes. AS someone that just wrong a long paragraph about the variables of fielding stats, why the hell would I think FLD% would do that?
you said it meant 'less than nothing'. And that is all I was talking about.
What metric identifies the best defensive SS of all time?
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:57 pm to Baloo
What the numbers in ()?
Posted on 2/23/12 at 4:58 pm to TigerintheNO
# of Seasons.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 5:01 pm to Baloo
quote:
Which list has a better top ten? Is this even a question? Also, look at the gap in numbers. It’s really the top two, then Cal, then the next two, then everyone else.
That one obviously is. However it is a lot of the same names.
Troy Tulo grades out well above average by that metric as well. Omar Viquel is #5. 2 of the 3 modern day players you just ribbed for being near the top FLD%.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 5:22 pm to Lester Earl
I said it was less than worthless and demonstrated why. You are rejected fielding stats out of hand, and I’m demonstrating why they are generally reliable, while rejecting the standard you created for their validity. I don’t know what else to tell you.
Dan is using Total zone Run because when applied to historical data, IT DOES A GOOD JOB OF RATING PLAYERS. So to circle all the way back, the fact Andruw Jones’ rating is so much better does mean something. Look how well it ranked SS, it’s not suddenly going to become unreliable regarding centerfielders. Rejecting the stat is wholly invalid doesn’t seem a tenable position.
Dan is using Total zone Run because when applied to historical data, IT DOES A GOOD JOB OF RATING PLAYERS. So to circle all the way back, the fact Andruw Jones’ rating is so much better does mean something. Look how well it ranked SS, it’s not suddenly going to become unreliable regarding centerfielders. Rejecting the stat is wholly invalid doesn’t seem a tenable position.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 5:40 pm to Baloo
Ive never rejected, nor have invalidated it.
I think Andruw Jones is the best CF of all time.
I don't think he shits on Griffey though. Why Griffey is so low in that ranking, I cannot explain. Just about anyone that saw him play thinks he is one of the best ever.
My problem comes in saying he shite on Griffey because of this metric and nothing else. This board becomes cluttered with stuff like this when baseball rolls around. Some people enjoy, I guess i don't. I want people to watch games, not read numbers. Or at least try and do both.
Looking at 2B, evidently Mark Lemke shits on Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan, and Roberto Alomar. Who knew?
I have to run. Been fun.
I think Andruw Jones is the best CF of all time.
I don't think he shits on Griffey though. Why Griffey is so low in that ranking, I cannot explain. Just about anyone that saw him play thinks he is one of the best ever.
My problem comes in saying he shite on Griffey because of this metric and nothing else. This board becomes cluttered with stuff like this when baseball rolls around. Some people enjoy, I guess i don't. I want people to watch games, not read numbers. Or at least try and do both.
Looking at 2B, evidently Mark Lemke shits on Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan, and Roberto Alomar. Who knew?
I have to run. Been fun.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 5:43 pm to OBUDan
quote:
# of Seasons.
5. Omar Vizquel (23, 44) 134 R
I knew he had been around a while but 44 seasons seem like a lot
Posted on 2/23/12 at 6:01 pm to TigerintheNO
Yeah he's been around forever, man.
Years, then age.
Years, then age.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 6:02 pm to OBUDan
I thought it was seasons, but I didn't understand why he was the only one with 2 numbers
Posted on 2/23/12 at 6:05 pm to TigerintheNO
If you go to the site, it lists ages of all active players.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 6:06 pm to Lester Earl
As far as I can tell the phrase "shits all over Griffey" started and ended with you.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 7:52 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
My problem comes in saying he shite on Griffey because of this metric and nothing else. This board becomes cluttered with stuff like this when baseball rolls around. Some people enjoy, I guess i don't. I want people to watch games, not read numbers. Or at least try and do both.
Don't hurt yourself knocking off that strawman. Fans of watching baseball also can like objective measurement. And the reason we get into the nitty gritty of the numbers is because you keep demanding to know how everything is calculated, so we get further into it. Why can't "a bunch of smart people did the math for me" just work? I want to watch games, too. We all like watching the games? That's why we like to talk baseball.
We get into the nitty gritty of these numbers because you always ask about it. Just accept that, say, WAR is Wins Above Replacement. It's self-explanatory. It's the number of wins a guy adds over a replacement player. How is it calculated? With lots and lots of math, but it rates everything.
And not one person advancing an advanced defensive metric has even suggested that there is no value to watching games.
quote:
Looking at 2B, evidently Mark Lemke shits on Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan, and Roberto Alomar. Who knew?
The gap between Andruw and Griffey is 220 to 7. The gap between Lemke and Ryno is 73-57. Do you not get the difference there? Yeah, boom roasted.
Posted on 2/23/12 at 8:04 pm to TigerintheNO
Jeff Bagwell
Posted on 2/24/12 at 9:16 am to Baloo
Defense was Lemke's only discernible skill. I'd suspect he'd be highly rated in that regard.
Posted on 2/24/12 at 9:47 am to OBUDan
You forgot scrappiness. Lemke is one of the all time leaders in the Scrappy Index, behind only David Eckstein.
Posted on 2/24/12 at 9:50 am to Baloo
Oh absolutely.
How else could a guy like this play for a decade?
How else could a guy like this play for a decade?
Posted on 2/24/12 at 10:25 am to OBUDan
quote:
quote:
3b- scott rolen
He's pretty amazing, to this day.
Which blows my mind that people don't think he's HOF worthy. He's arguably the 2nd best defensive catcher of all time and the 3rd best offensive catcher.
Posted on 2/24/12 at 10:29 am to barry
quote:
3b- scott rolen
He's pretty amazing, to this day.
Which blows my mind that people don't think he's HOF worthy. He's arguably the 2nd best defensive catcher of all time and the 3rd best offensive catcher.
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