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re: University of California system to drop SAT, ACT scores from admissions officially
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:07 pm to Obtuse1
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:07 pm to Obtuse1
You're proposing a system that ignores academic ability, and intelligence. When you're sorting through 57,000 resumes, from kids from different schools, with very different academic standards, you'll have to use a new method for sorting them, and deciding which ones get read.
And with the way things are now, it's going to come down to class, and race. Which are easy to pull from an applicants bio.
And these days, that means the wokest people in the room will get selected. While ordinary people, who can do the work, get punished.
The end result will be tragic for America. University is a gatekeeper for good jobs, and by selecting for ideology, they will ensure that only the wokest have good jobs, and ultimately power.
This is dangerous.
And with the way things are now, it's going to come down to class, and race. Which are easy to pull from an applicants bio.
And these days, that means the wokest people in the room will get selected. While ordinary people, who can do the work, get punished.
The end result will be tragic for America. University is a gatekeeper for good jobs, and by selecting for ideology, they will ensure that only the wokest have good jobs, and ultimately power.
This is dangerous.
This post was edited on 5/14/21 at 11:08 pm
1
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:22 pm to Obtuse1
Fair point but how many 17-18 year olds have you hired at whatever company you work for?
What’s your solution?
What’s your solution?
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:28 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
You're proposing a system that ignores academic ability, and intelligence.
That isn't remotely the case. I am pointing out the SAT/ACT, as well as tests like the LSAT and MCAT, are poor predictors of success. You are reiterating my point that without them the admissions process is more difficult for the schools. Done correctly it will be more work but produce overall better incoming classes.
You are suggesting they will not do what is necessary to find the best applicants which may or may not be the case and I pointed out that potential issue in my first post in the thread.
You talked about an apples-to-apples comparison then talk about ignoring academic ability and intelligence. How are standardized tests an apples-to-apples comparison when some people have the best test prep and running on PEDs and others don't and aren't?
The admissions process can be done better without standardized tests but the job is harder. If you are skeptical about how they will implement it I can not argue with that as I don't know how they will implement the change. If you think taking away standardized tests leaves you with just class and race to judge someone's merits as an applicant to college then I am not sure I can go any further with the discussion. That lack of understanding baffles me.
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:33 pm to SuperSaint
quote:
SuperSaint
Is SS Jr awake??
Let me stay on topic - I made my oldest take the ACT last fall and she just graduated - LSU didn’t require it for fall 2021
They probably won’t when #2 is a senior in two years
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:38 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
I am pointing out the SAT/ACT, as well as tests like the LSAT and MCAT, are poor predictors of success
How poor?
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:47 pm to Sun God
quote:
Fair point but how many 17-18 year olds have you hired at whatever company you work for?
What’s your solution?
The youngest person I have ever hired is 20 and the vast majority of my hiring decision has been roughly 25 yo due to professional requirements.
A HS senior has a significant body of academic work to review. A lot better predictor of success in college than how well they did on a test that takes 3 hours.
My solution if throwing out standardized tests would be a more holistic approach. Just for an admittedly crafted situation consider these two kids:
1. has a 3.9 GPA in a solid HS, worked 30 hours a week during HS and has a 1320 SAT score.
2. has a 4.1 GPA at a similarly solid HS didn't work at all through HS and has a 1420 SAT score.
Very simplistic but I would suggest it is likely #1 would be more successful in college and life. Again my point is how well one does on a 3 hour test isn't as strong of a predictor as what they have actually done in school. My main if not only salient point in this thread is tests are just a shortcut for the admissions departments of schools. There are better ways to select quality candidates I am not going so far as to say the UofC system will get it right, they may or may not.
The "solution" I suggest is simple, but not easy, the solution they have been using is both simple and easy.
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:50 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
You are reiterating my point that without them the admissions process is more difficult for the schools. Done correctly it will be more work but produce overall better incoming classes.
There are too many applications to process.
They have to sift them.
quote:
You talked about an apples-to-apples comparison then talk about ignoring academic ability and intelligence. How are standardized tests an apples-to-apples comparison when some people have the best test prep and running on PEDs and others don't and aren't?
Standardized tests remain the fairest option.
quote:
If you think taking away standardized tests leaves you with just class and race to judge someone's merits as an applicant to college then I am not sure I can go any further with the discussion.
quote:
That lack of understanding baffles me.
I know academia. And I'm aware of what's happening in America.
The California schools want to reduce the number of Asian students, and increase the number of Black students. That's why they're getting rid of standardized tests.
It's about hitting racial quotas.
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:55 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
The "solution" I suggest is simple, but not easy, the solution they have been using is both simple and easy.
How is your solution simple?
Did you have to rifle through 100k plus resumès when you hired your 20 year old?
This post was edited on 5/14/21 at 11:58 pm
Posted on 5/14/21 at 11:57 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Racist Racist Racist!!!!!!
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:00 am to GreenRockTiger
quote:Nawww his bed time is 7:30pm ish, put him down after the LSU baseball game
Is SS Jr awake??
Why you looking to sext? You got butthole pics handy
This post was edited on 5/15/21 at 12:00 am
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:02 am to Obtuse1
quote:
1. has a 3.9 GPA in a solid HS, worked 30 hours a week during HS and has a 1320 SAT score.
2. has a 4.1 GPA at a similarly solid HS didn't work at all through HS and has a 1420 SAT score.
That's not what they're doing. They're literally finding out the race of the applicants and discriminating against them. Removing ACTs/SATs makes it less obvious they are doing it.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:12 am to Sun God
quote:
How poor?
I can't speak with authority on anything but LSAT numbers. As I mentioned earlier in the thread my firm now uses Parker Analytics in our hiring process for attorneys and in the first meeting with one of their quants LSAT (and of note law school) basically had zero to do with job performance. There were dozens of other metrics which were far better predictors. They were quite clear hiring someone with a 170+ LSAT and a T14 law school education means you are definitely getting a smart person but it isn't a good predictor of performance. My firm (outside the 3 exceptions I mentioned) had only hired T14 grads and there is no question they were all highly intelligent but it was simply a shortcut that results in a mirror-tocracy. Now we dive deeper do more work and it has resulted in higher quality first-year associates and higher levels of retention going forward.
To me, the high degree of weight standardized tests receive in the admissions process is laughable IMO. It is like job hiring based almost solely on IQ. As elite schools have seen more and more applications they have naturally followed the line of least resistance and standardized tests are by far the easiest option.
This post was edited on 5/15/21 at 12:19 am
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:13 am to Sun God
quote:
How is your solution simple?
You are failing to grasp the difference between simple and easy, they are not synonymous.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:23 am to BeepNode
quote:
That's not what they're doing. They're literally finding out the race of the applicants and discriminating against them. Removing ACTs/SATs makes it less obvious they are doing it.
That is a different discussion than I am weighing in on and is based on supposition. I have said more than once that I can't discuss their exact implementation because it isn't available to discuss. If you are interested in a discussion based on what your feels tell you will happen in the future I am honestly not interested in that.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 12:30 am to Obtuse1
quote:
If you are interested in a discussion based on what your feels tell you will happen in the future I am honestly not interested in that.
Without ACT or SAT scores how is it even possible to discuss it in any other way than your "feels"? I mean, you just made up a hypothetical.
There's hard evidence that schools discriminate against Asians. SAT scores vs admissions rates is a big part of that evidence. At Harvard they basically just rate all the Asians lower than everyone else on subjective metrics like personality, courage, trustworthiness, etc. Maybe you really think Asians are just less trustworthy, I dunno.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 6:11 am to Ross
(no message)
This post was edited on 5/15/21 at 5:36 pm
Posted on 5/15/21 at 8:39 am to scott8811
There are valedictorians graduating from public high schools in Nola with a 20 on the ACT. Now how do you imagine that kid would do at Cal Berkeley?
Posted on 5/15/21 at 8:42 am to Teddy Ruxpin
quote:If it's as reputable as you say, quality grad schools and employers would know that.
My wife's very good college had stringent GPA inflation controls which put their students at a disadvantage for grad school and employment after graduation.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 9:20 am to Deactived
quote:
Dude you have been on here for the last year or two acting like you are some rich elitist from California and you're above us poor people from LA.
This act made me curious given his background, so I looked him up using info posted here. Meh, super unimpressed. Lots of lying and exaggerating.
Posted on 5/15/21 at 9:28 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Y’all are overreacting to this one I think. All this will accomplish is the lessening of the degree from any CAL system college and companies will look elsewhere when hiring employees until they realize it’s costing the school in the long run and then it will return on a few years. The sad thing is the idiots who approve this will stay in power
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