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Could any strategy have worked in Vietnam?
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:07 pm
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:07 pm
I am finishing up “The Vietnam War” by Ken Burns. I have never done this in-depth a look of the entire war. But this series seems to show that everything we could have done wrong we did do wrong. Damn. Was there anything we could have done other than not getting involved at all?
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:08 pm to Wolfhound45
Keeping the media and Jane Fonda out would’ve probably altered history.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:09 pm to Wolfhound45
Watching that too. From what I've learned from that show nothing but hoards of cash given to the people in the country could have worked. Even then the vc still would have happened.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:10 pm to Wolfhound45
When politicians fight wars, you can never win.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:12 pm to Wolfhound45
yeah do not get me started omn this please. after fighting commies in korea we shoulda never went when we had communists in cuba BUT we coulda destroyed them if we wanted to. 3 battleships coulda destroyed that port in north vietnam. coulda blown hanoi off the fukin map. politics ruined it
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:13 pm to Wolfhound45
If we didn't make mistakes it actually might have just dragged on longer.
Never underestimate the will of people in their own country. The Viet-Cong were in it for the long haul and totally committed.
Our piecemeal deployment showed the top brass didn't have that at the expense of the common soldier and that was the common complaint from soldiers who came back.
Never underestimate the will of people in their own country. The Viet-Cong were in it for the long haul and totally committed.
Our piecemeal deployment showed the top brass didn't have that at the expense of the common soldier and that was the common complaint from soldiers who came back.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:13 pm to Wolfhound45
The Republic of Vietnam fell when we cut aid.
If we’d kept up support, and it continued to survive, you could have called that a win.
The war itself. We didn’t need to get involved.
If we’d kept up support, and it continued to survive, you could have called that a win.
The war itself. We didn’t need to get involved.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:13 pm to Wolfhound45
Actually declare war on North Vietnam. Actually try and hold land we gain. Don’t stop the B-52 strikes on Hanoi. Get involved in Laos and Cambodia and break up the Ho Chi Minh trail. And keep the media out of it.
When you’re watching tv and see little Johnny from across the street getting shot in Vietnam, you’re going to want out. The reason Korea was successful was that it was still riding off the coattails of WW2 ie Most of the US GIs in Korea had combat experience from WW2 and the war media was still very controlled.
When you’re watching tv and see little Johnny from across the street getting shot in Vietnam, you’re going to want out. The reason Korea was successful was that it was still riding off the coattails of WW2 ie Most of the US GIs in Korea had combat experience from WW2 and the war media was still very controlled.
This post was edited on 7/6/18 at 11:21 pm
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:13 pm to Wolfhound45
I would assume a Nuke probably would have done the trick in terms of ‘winning’.
Not sure the fallout on doing that though (no pun intended)
Not sure the fallout on doing that though (no pun intended)
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:15 pm to Wolfhound45
They didn't want it to end. To much profit.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:16 pm to Wolfhound45
My best hindsight, and I've studied this for all of my adult life, is more or less based on Harry Summers book, On Strategy. With U.S. support, the ARVN could likely have handled the VC, but not the NVA (and certainly not both). SO, we should have let the Diem government run wild in the interior and deal with the VC as they saw fit. If U.S. involvement had been focused exclusively on 3 things:
1. Air/artillery support of the ARVN
2. Interdiction of supplies and reinforcements coming down the Ho Chi Minh trail
3. Fighting the NVA regular units and infiltrators at the Northern and Western frontier,
...then the press coverage wouldn't have portrayed the U.S. involvement in such a negative light, the U.S. body count wouldn't have been the only story the U.S. press wanted to cover and public opinion wouldn't have soured nearly so quickly. The draft would have still been escalated, but not nearly as much and at not nearly the cost in casualties.
At least that's how I've seen it for at least 20 years.
1. Air/artillery support of the ARVN
2. Interdiction of supplies and reinforcements coming down the Ho Chi Minh trail
3. Fighting the NVA regular units and infiltrators at the Northern and Western frontier,
...then the press coverage wouldn't have portrayed the U.S. involvement in such a negative light, the U.S. body count wouldn't have been the only story the U.S. press wanted to cover and public opinion wouldn't have soured nearly so quickly. The draft would have still been escalated, but not nearly as much and at not nearly the cost in casualties.
At least that's how I've seen it for at least 20 years.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:28 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Was there anything we could have done other than not getting involved at all?
no
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:30 pm to Wolfhound45
We could have turned Hanoi into Dresden if we wanted to, but the optics would have been bad.
Strategically it was a very winnable war. But was it a war worth killing that many innocents when we didn’t have a chance of being invaded by a country?
Personally, I feel communism and forcing people to live under it is as much as a human tragedy as the holocaust, but the reality was that North Vietnam wasn’t the worldwide threat that Nazi Germany was.
Strategically it was a very winnable war. But was it a war worth killing that many innocents when we didn’t have a chance of being invaded by a country?
Personally, I feel communism and forcing people to live under it is as much as a human tragedy as the holocaust, but the reality was that North Vietnam wasn’t the worldwide threat that Nazi Germany was.
This post was edited on 7/6/18 at 11:31 pm
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:33 pm to Wolfhound45
several things. they could have defined what exactly winning meant, then not saddled our guys with moronic rules of engagement and let get to it as hard as they can. if you are going to fight a war, the only moral thing to do at that point is get it done as fast as possible. that was the problem with those hot conflicts that were proxies of the cold war. the actual fighting never really had defined/achievable goals, they were just political maneuvers.
This post was edited on 7/6/18 at 11:34 pm
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:45 pm to Wolfhound45
Yes. Bomb North Viet Nam to a pulp. We almost won that war. But we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. General Gap (head of North Viet Nam Army) admitted we almost forced them to surrender after a relentless bombing campaign by our Air Force. But our pal Walter Cronkite turned the tide in their favor. We wasted the lives of 60+ thousand men. A couple of those were my high school classmates. Many of those brave men who survived are now dying from exposure to agent orange. I know a few.
Posted on 7/6/18 at 11:45 pm to Wolfhound45
About half a million of more dead americans. You trade soldiers lives to win that sort of invasion. We werent ready to do that for some small country in asia.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:01 am to Wolfhound45
This is going to be painful for those who served or who lost friends in Vietnam, but were the protestors right? Was the war immoral? I honestly am struggling with this as I watch this series.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:05 am to Wolfhound45
Certainly not the way we fought it.
Part of the problem was that no one particularly identified what the goals were over there or how we would achieve them.
Given that all activity post-Tet was NVA rather than VC, the plan at that point should have been to invade Hanoi and string up Ho Chi Minh and General Giap.
Instead, we played whack a mole with guerillas and spent a shite ton of time, money, and ordinance trying to disrupt the logistics of the enemy in a way that wouldn’t work.
Specifically with regard to logistics, we were using bombs intended to stop trucks from being able to pass against a country using people on foot, on bicycles, and pushing wheelbarrows. Might as well have been using EMPs against the Amish.
Could we have won? Yes, but the costs in lives, money, and prestige would have been high and politicians would have been afraid to do so. So they halfassed it instead and cost as much or more of all three fighting a war we couldn’t win.
Part of the problem was that no one particularly identified what the goals were over there or how we would achieve them.
Given that all activity post-Tet was NVA rather than VC, the plan at that point should have been to invade Hanoi and string up Ho Chi Minh and General Giap.
Instead, we played whack a mole with guerillas and spent a shite ton of time, money, and ordinance trying to disrupt the logistics of the enemy in a way that wouldn’t work.
Specifically with regard to logistics, we were using bombs intended to stop trucks from being able to pass against a country using people on foot, on bicycles, and pushing wheelbarrows. Might as well have been using EMPs against the Amish.
Could we have won? Yes, but the costs in lives, money, and prestige would have been high and politicians would have been afraid to do so. So they halfassed it instead and cost as much or more of all three fighting a war we couldn’t win.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:09 am to Wolfhound45
We don’t fight wars to overwhelm and occupy anymore. That ended in WW2. Our aim now is to destabilize threat and install leadership sympathetic to our interests. And sell weapons. Lots of weapons.
Posted on 7/7/18 at 12:30 am to Wolfhound45
Kicking the French and British out when we were helping Ho Chi Minh with OSS support in fighting the Japs but that probably falls under “not getting involved.”
You should read Gradual Failure next. Staaveren was a Korean War pilot who flew in Nam and wrote the book while over there, though it wasn’t declassified until the 90’s it gives some stellar insights as to how politicians can frick up a wet dream. Robin Old’s book “Fighter Pilot” also has some insights though the book isn’t necessarily about Vietnam it’s still an absolutely incredible read.
You should read Gradual Failure next. Staaveren was a Korean War pilot who flew in Nam and wrote the book while over there, though it wasn’t declassified until the 90’s it gives some stellar insights as to how politicians can frick up a wet dream. Robin Old’s book “Fighter Pilot” also has some insights though the book isn’t necessarily about Vietnam it’s still an absolutely incredible read.
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