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re: GoT S7 E4 "The Spoils of War" MAESTERS Thread
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:05 am to OMLandshark
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:05 am to OMLandshark
I will say this though, while I hate the Tyrion being Aerys son, I am oddly intrigued about Jaime and Cersei being Aerys children. Anything Tyrion being Aerys child I think people simply point out plot points and appearance rather than the character himself. I don't see Tyrion having really any traits in common with the Targaryens we've met in history.
Jaime and Cersei though, absolutely.
Cersei- She's fricking insane, she's obsessed with prophesy and Wildfyre, she's hot tempered with no patience, she's exceptionally cruel and torturous, she's incestuous, and the only other person she's ever loved was Rhaegar who would also be her brother.
Jaime- It would be ironic that Jaime actually did obey Aerys final order and brought him his father's head, is in an incestuous relationship, has been haunted his entire life by not saving Rhaegar's children, possesses extreme arrogance, a great warrior (Lannisters weren't particularly known for this before Jaime), his aunt's opinion of him and Tyrion, and would actually give him a parallel bond with Tyrion both having slain their own father.
Additionally it would give a great more deal of irony to Robert who hated the Targaryens but then married one and raised Targaryen bastards. On top of that it confirms Tywin's blindness to his children, making it even more ironic if Tyrion was his only son.
The one thing that makes me hate it though is too many secret Targaryens, especially in the books due to Aegon.
Jaime and Cersei though, absolutely.
Cersei- She's fricking insane, she's obsessed with prophesy and Wildfyre, she's hot tempered with no patience, she's exceptionally cruel and torturous, she's incestuous, and the only other person she's ever loved was Rhaegar who would also be her brother.
Jaime- It would be ironic that Jaime actually did obey Aerys final order and brought him his father's head, is in an incestuous relationship, has been haunted his entire life by not saving Rhaegar's children, possesses extreme arrogance, a great warrior (Lannisters weren't particularly known for this before Jaime), his aunt's opinion of him and Tyrion, and would actually give him a parallel bond with Tyrion both having slain their own father.
Additionally it would give a great more deal of irony to Robert who hated the Targaryens but then married one and raised Targaryen bastards. On top of that it confirms Tywin's blindness to his children, making it even more ironic if Tyrion was his only son.
The one thing that makes me hate it though is too many secret Targaryens, especially in the books due to Aegon.
This post was edited on 8/10/17 at 10:06 am
3
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:08 am to Methuselah
quote:
I'm kind of torn. While it does have some upsides (mostly the thought of Tyrion riding a dragon!), the downsides outweigh them. ie: Tyrion really being Tywin's son in so many ways, Tywin's failures at caring for and raising Tyrion properly, Tyrion killing his father, etc. Although on the last point, with kin slaying being almost as bad as violating guest rights and king slaying in the books, I was always a little put off that Tyrion violated one of the major taboos.
I'd much prefer the Jaime/Cersei Targaryen theory. They represent the 2 sides of the "Targaryen Coin Flip." Tyrion being Tywin's only true son would be so awesome
Still, all of these theories + Aegon + Jon Snow just makes for too much secret parent/baby bullshite
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:18 am to OMLandshark
Tyrion isn't a Targaryen...he, according to some woman in the book, she tells Jaime that tyrion is "truly tywin's son"
meaning tywin's cunning, intelligence, political mastery, pragmatism, etc. are traits Tyrion possesses...the difference between Tyrion and tywin is size. Tyrion's life as a dwarf and outcast has also made him kind unlike tywin.
Jaime isn't anything like his father. Cerseii, despite trying to imitate him, isn't anything like him.
meaning tywin's cunning, intelligence, political mastery, pragmatism, etc. are traits Tyrion possesses...the difference between Tyrion and tywin is size. Tyrion's life as a dwarf and outcast has also made him kind unlike tywin.
Jaime isn't anything like his father. Cerseii, despite trying to imitate him, isn't anything like him.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:20 am to OMLandshark
quote:
especially in the books due to Aegon.
So, you're not convinced that Young Griff is actually a pretender?
Because I am - there would have been no need for Rhaegar to go out and father Jon if young Aegon was to survive Robert's Rebellion. Now, it's still possible, because "the dragon has 3 heads" - and that could be Aegon, Dany and Jon - but Dany was his sister. And, of course, there is the persistent imperfection of prophecy and its interpretation, to which even Melisandre will confess.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:22 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
So, you're not convinced that Young Griff is actually a pretender?
Oh, I'm totally convinced he is such, but he is being presented to Westeros that he is a secret Targaryen.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:25 am to DelU249
quote:
meaning tywin's cunning, intelligence, political mastery, pragmatism, etc. are traits Tyrion possesses...the difference between Tyrion and tywin is size. Tyrion's life as a dwarf and outcast has also made him kind unlike tywin.
If you want it boiled down: Tyrion is Tywin without being a hypocrite. Everything Tywin claims to stand for is a Wall of Hypocrisy. At least Tyrion is honest.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:34 am to iluvdatiger
quote:
If they made any agreement, i wanna see it. If they so much as even touch, i wanna see it.
You know, ever since the R+L=J theory congealed in my mind and became obvious, I've always thought of ASOIAF to mean, literally, the union/alliance/marriage/child of Dany and Jon. But, the more this goes along, I think ASOIAF is just Jon. He's TPTWP. He's got the Ice and Fire pedigree.
He has already died and come back - although in a way, this has happened to almost all the currently active main characters, literally or figuratively. There is no indication of Lightbringer (unless that's a metaphor, too, and Davos turns out to be "Lightbringer") - so, we just don't know.
"Nothing good ever happens to a Stark" - so I'm pretty sure that Jon is headed for an unhappy ending.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:38 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Oh, I'm totally convinced he is such, but he is being presented to Westeros that he is a secret Targaryen.
The show has convinced me that these "troublesome heirs," both real and pretenders, are mostly cul-de-sacs or dead ends.
Gendry/Edric Storm? Nothing will come of that. Aegon? Nothing will come of that. The show's economics have pretty much set the final game table if you look through the smoke and mirrors. The Sand Snakes? Gone. Dorne and High Garden? Taken out early. We're now rushing headlong into the penultimate struggle - between Dany and the Lannisters and then, the War for the Dawn faces the survivors and victors of that.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:38 am to Ace Midnight
You are not wrong. Jon is Ice and Fire.
But Ice and Fire can have more than one meaning. So, it also refers to the story of the Stark and Targaryen restorations. And the upcoming battle with the White Walkers and Dragons.
But Ice and Fire can have more than one meaning. So, it also refers to the story of the Stark and Targaryen restorations. And the upcoming battle with the White Walkers and Dragons.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:41 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
there would have been no need for Rhaegar to go out and father Jon if young Aegon was to survive Robert's Rebellion.
maybe im confused by your wording
are you claiming that rhaegar got lyanna pregnant because Aegon was already dead?
if so, your timelines are crossed
Lyanna wouldve already been pregnant when Rhaegar died and when Aegon died
Ned was at the Battle of the Trident when Rhegar was killed
It was after that battle that Tywin invaded King's Landing
and after all that that Ned showed up at the Tower of Joy which is right after or during Jon's birth
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:42 am to Ace Midnight
not unhappy but bittersweet
Martin has already acknowledged that
Martin has already acknowledged that
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:46 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Aegon? Nothing will come of that. The show's economics have pretty much set the final game table if you look through the smoke and mirrors.
I still think that there will be something to the Aegon story. The male line of Targaryens would die otherwise, which could be seen as the end of that dynasty. You are correct that the show seems to indicate that Aegon's story will end sooner than later, but that could just mean that show writers are hesitant to introducing a new character (which they have done many, many times).
However, the popular theory is that a dragon will die in the show. This could still mesh with the book if Aegon where to be riding that dragon and dies with it. And, this could happen after Aegon marries (probably Arianne), has a wedding night, and leaves behind a Targ baby boy.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:50 am to OMLandshark
quote:
I am oddly intrigued about Jaime and Cersei being Aerys children.
My favorite, and the one I have always stuck to, is Jaime is Aerys's and Cersei is Tywin's. As the twins are NOT the same sex, they are fraternal twins by definition, allowing for 2 different fathers.
This is crackpipe, of course, but it also makes Jaime and Cersei a little less revolting. The married Targ siblings were paired out of a sense of genetic defense; of duty almost, and those all seemed to have an absence of the...passion
that the Lannisters demonstrate-which is what makes their whole incest thing really nasty.
And re: Dragon riders needing Targ blood- In the short story "The Princess and the Queen, or The Blacks and the Greens" -all about the Dance of the Dragons, GRRM describes how both sides scrambled to find riders for the many wild dragons and how the riders were selected: it either ate, killed or accepted the attempting rider with no discenable reason. Highborn or bastard, Flea-Bottom trash or Targ, no bloodline had a significant advantage in breaking a dragon -Although one industrious girl fed her's a sheep every day before attempting to mount, and it did the trick.
So Tyrion will still be a dragon rider without Targ blood. The show already hinted at that last season.
And Shark's reasons for wanting Tyrion full-blooded Lannister are my reasons, too.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:55 am to Carson123987
quote:
I'd much prefer the Jaime/Cersei Targaryen theory. They represent the 2 sides of the "Targaryen Coin Flip."
Yeah, that works with me, too.
quote:
Tyrion being Tywin's only true son would be so awesome
Trashy and awesome, amiright?
and no, I'll never let you live that one down, baw.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:57 am to DelU249
quote:His fat aunt, whose married to a Frey. Yes, I remember this.
according to some woman in the book, she tells Jaime that tyrion is "truly tywin's son"
The parentage overthinking is getting annoying.
And yes, it's Drogon. What does it fricking matter anyway?
Posted on 8/10/17 at 10:57 am to jrodLSUke
quote:
The male line of Targaryens would die otherwise
Jon is the son of Rhaegar. All Westeros needs is for someone to confirm it. Howland Reed or a surrogate.
Heck, it might get proven de facto if he avoids death by serious fire. (Just had a thought - what if HE'S Lightbringer and literally fights while on fire? #BadAss).
That could mesh both stories - Dany is TPTWP and Jon is Lightbringer.
(I know, getting crackpotty up in here.)Posted on 8/10/17 at 11:00 am to blueboy
I wish Genna Lannister was in the show 
.
.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 11:01 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Cersei- She's fricking insane
Would that not make for a great ending. Cersei on a dragon flying over the seven kingdoms all burning below her and the only main character left laughing about how she now rules the seven kingdoms.
Posted on 8/10/17 at 11:09 am to ladytiger118
Genna. That's it. I kept wanting to call her Fanny for some reason, maybe because she's fat.
"There's only one fat Lannister. If she was your mother, you'd know it."
"There's only one fat Lannister. If she was your mother, you'd know it."
Posted on 8/10/17 at 11:11 am to Ash Williams
quote:
maybe im confused by your wording are you claiming that rhaegar got lyanna pregnant because Aegon was already dead? if so, your timelines are crossed
I'm probably overstating it. I'm not sure he foretold his son's death. However, he was convinced he needed a third child and Elia couldn't give it to him. That's probably more accurate than my earlier implication.
When he got the vision of Dany when she was in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar incorrectly interpreted his sister as a future daughter. He was expecting 2 daughters after Aegon. He was probably confused AF when Lyanna bore a son, if he even knew. He may very well have left for the Trident before the birth.
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