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Message
re: The Wheel of Time -- Season 2 coming in September -- Wise Ones Thread (Book Spoilers)
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:08 pm to LoneStarRanger
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:08 pm to LoneStarRanger
I’m just confused. Did you expect a word for word adaptation? Here you might really like this other adaptation that was made awhile back.
LINK
Also great responses to everything I said. “There change therefore bad” is essentially all you’ve said so far.
LINK
Also great responses to everything I said. “There change therefore bad” is essentially all you’ve said so far.
1
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:23 pm to Babble
You’re coping. It’s bad. Makes no sense. Has the production quality of a network television show.
Posted on 11/19/21 at 9:31 pm to LoneStarRanger
You just really come off as someone who decided to dislike this show even before it came out.
Cant even acknowledge a single comment I made because you really just want to hate the show.
Cant even acknowledge a single comment I made because you really just want to hate the show.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 6:16 am to Sneaky__Sally
There was a lot of cheese factor in the first episode for me. Far too rushed for people unfamiliar with the books. The lack of focus on the Heron marked sword and it’s significance was just… not smart. The FX I dunno. I was hoping for at least being on the level of The Witcher, but the sets and settings seemed a bit… fake.
Too much time spent on the ceremony at the beginning. Could have used time far better in that first episode. Honestly should have been a 75 minute pilot. The source material is fricking dense and they rushed it a bit too much.
They made Mat a loser thief and I’m not huge in that. Wasn’t huge on giving Perrin a SO he kills either.
Basically. Production wise, it looked a little too close to Legend of the Seeker.
Trollocs we’re well done though I think.
That was stupid fricking signaling BS. It’s quite clear The Dragon is male in the books. You have all the false Dragons and the drama around it. It was a stupid line.
Too much time spent on the ceremony at the beginning. Could have used time far better in that first episode. Honestly should have been a 75 minute pilot. The source material is fricking dense and they rushed it a bit too much.
They made Mat a loser thief and I’m not huge in that. Wasn’t huge on giving Perrin a SO he kills either.
Basically. Production wise, it looked a little too close to Legend of the Seeker.
Trollocs we’re well done though I think.
quote:
as a boy or a girl" in the first 10 seconds bothered me
That was stupid fricking signaling BS. It’s quite clear The Dragon is male in the books. You have all the false Dragons and the drama around it. It was a stupid line.
This post was edited on 11/20/21 at 6:19 am
Posted on 11/20/21 at 8:01 am to PhineasFreakaZoid
quote:
That was stupid fricking signaling BS. It’s quite clear The Dragon is male in the books. You have all the false Dragons and the drama around it. It was a stupid line.
Imma be real with you. Im not a ultra PC woke guy, but you’re just wrong on this. You just are. Changing this dialogue to make it possibly be Egwene (to the eye of the viewer) affects almost nothing material in the actual story. Rand will still be the dragon reborn. Egwene will still do what she does. That stuff won’t change. But what WILL happen, is that people who haven’t read the books that watch the show, will be more captured by the mystery of the dragon reborn and they will be more invested in the characters and the show as a result.
You may not have liked the show. shite, I’m not sure if I did yet. But, regardless, decisions like that are smart ones by the show runners because ultimately they need this show to appeal to more than just book readers if it’s going to be big enough to survive. Immaterial changes like that, that draw people in, are worth it 100% of the time.
This post was edited on 11/20/21 at 8:02 am
Posted on 11/20/21 at 8:20 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
You may not have liked the show. shite, I’m not sure if I did yet. But, regardless, decisions like that are smart ones by the show runners because ultimately they need this show to appeal to more than just book readers if it’s going to be big enough to survive. Immaterial changes like that, that draw people in, are worth it 100% of the time.
Very well said.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 8:47 am to Rand AlThor
What? There isn’t enough of a mystery with three male leads that are integral to the story? Including Egwene doesn’t add anything. What mystery does a 4th add that 3 doesn’t fulfill?
Posted on 11/20/21 at 9:55 am to Rand AlThor
quote:
You may not have liked the show. shite, I’m not sure if I did yet. But, regardless, decisions like that are smart ones by the show runners because ultimately they need this show to appeal to more than just book readers if it’s going to be big enough to survive. Immaterial changes like that, that draw people in, are worth it 100% of the time.
I don't get that at all. You have an oppressive and powerful matriarchal order who hunts down specifically males who can draw on the source which becomes a crucial aspect of most of the rest of the story. Nothing is gained by suggesting a woman could be the Dragon, because that would significantly alter the methods and politics of the Aes Sedai.
This was just plain modern day virtue signaling, and there will be plenty more before this season finishes. It is Amazon, after all.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 12:14 pm to AUCom96
found some comments from Brandon Sandserson (mistborn) over on reddit, thought they may be of interest here. He wrote these before watching the show.
Haven't watched the final product yet, as I wasn't able to make the premier. Disclosure, I'm one of the producers. My part equated to reading the scripts and offering feedback directly to Rafe, the show runner. I'll be watching tonight, and there are a few details I'm curious to find out about in regards to whether he took my advice or not.
Biggest thing he and I disagreed on was Perrin's wife. I realize that there is a good opportunity here for Perrin to be shown with rage issues, and to be afraid of the potential beast inside of him. I liked that idea, but didn't like it being a wife for multiple reasons. First off, it feels a lot like the disposable wife trope (AKA Woman in the Fridge.) Beyond that, I think the trauma of having killed your wife is so huge, the story this is telling can't realistically deal with it in a way that is responsible. Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with.
I suggested instead that he kill Master Luhhhan. As much as I hate to do Luhhan dirty like that, I think the idea Rafe and the team had here is a good one for accelerating Perrin's plot. Accidentally killing your master steps the trauma back a little, but gives the same motivations and hesitance. One thing I don't want this WoT adaptation to try to do is lean into being a tonal Game of Thrones replacement--IE, I don't want to lean into the "Grimdark" ideas. Killing Perrin's wife felt edgy just to be edgy.
That said, I really liked a LOT about this first episode. I prefer this method of us not knowing who the Dragon is, and I actually preferred this prologue. I thought it was a neat, different take on how to start the WoT. I really liked the introduction to Mat, and in screenplay form, I thought the pacing was solid--fast, catchy, exciting. People are complaining about it, though, so maybe in show form it's too choppy. When I was on set, I liked the practical effects, and what I saw of the acting--so I'm expecting both of those to be great in the finished product.
EDIT: For those complaining about Abell Cauthon, I did try to get this one changed too. So at least they heard from one of us, offering complaint, before going to production. I always had a soft spot for him. I didn't expect them to change this, though, with Mat's more gritty backstory. Again, I do wish they had taken a less "grim" feel to all of this, though I do think the details of introducing Mat were interesting and a nice acceleration of his character. Which is a good thing, since the series will need to condense from the books, so moving character beats up in time is going to generally help with that.
This team is excellent, I have to say. Episode six is the best--least, I think that's the number of the one I'm thinking about--so be on the lookout for it. But they have real respect for the story, and are good writers. This is an enormously difficult project to undertake, and I'm quite impressed by Rafe and everyone involved.
Next Question:
If you don't mind me asking and if it's not allowed I'd understand, but was there a reason we didn't get to see the book prologue instead
Not complaining, I actually enjoyed the opening but was just curious.
Answer:
I think that there are a couple of reasons.
First, I think that Rafe wanted to frame this as Moiraine's story at the start--focus our attention on her quest to find the Dragon. Give her more a viewpoint, so to speak, in all of this. Second, he didn't want to predispose the viewer of thinking of the Dragon as a man. Finally, I think after the bad Billy Zane "prologue" he just wanted to do something fresh and new, something that didn't have baggage. The EoTW prologue is probably the single best fantasy prologue ever written--so I was skeptical when I heard he was doing this. But in the end, I think the decision is justifiable. It's certainly bold, and though I too would have liked to see the original, I think the statement made here is important. "Expect changes." It's setting a tonal promise from the get go that he's not filming the books scene by scene. It's not what I'd have done. But I respect these choices, and think what he did do--on paper--worked well.
Haven't watched the final product yet, as I wasn't able to make the premier. Disclosure, I'm one of the producers. My part equated to reading the scripts and offering feedback directly to Rafe, the show runner. I'll be watching tonight, and there are a few details I'm curious to find out about in regards to whether he took my advice or not.
Biggest thing he and I disagreed on was Perrin's wife. I realize that there is a good opportunity here for Perrin to be shown with rage issues, and to be afraid of the potential beast inside of him. I liked that idea, but didn't like it being a wife for multiple reasons. First off, it feels a lot like the disposable wife trope (AKA Woman in the Fridge.) Beyond that, I think the trauma of having killed your wife is so huge, the story this is telling can't realistically deal with it in a way that is responsible. Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with.
I suggested instead that he kill Master Luhhhan. As much as I hate to do Luhhan dirty like that, I think the idea Rafe and the team had here is a good one for accelerating Perrin's plot. Accidentally killing your master steps the trauma back a little, but gives the same motivations and hesitance. One thing I don't want this WoT adaptation to try to do is lean into being a tonal Game of Thrones replacement--IE, I don't want to lean into the "Grimdark" ideas. Killing Perrin's wife felt edgy just to be edgy.
That said, I really liked a LOT about this first episode. I prefer this method of us not knowing who the Dragon is, and I actually preferred this prologue. I thought it was a neat, different take on how to start the WoT. I really liked the introduction to Mat, and in screenplay form, I thought the pacing was solid--fast, catchy, exciting. People are complaining about it, though, so maybe in show form it's too choppy. When I was on set, I liked the practical effects, and what I saw of the acting--so I'm expecting both of those to be great in the finished product.
EDIT: For those complaining about Abell Cauthon, I did try to get this one changed too. So at least they heard from one of us, offering complaint, before going to production. I always had a soft spot for him. I didn't expect them to change this, though, with Mat's more gritty backstory. Again, I do wish they had taken a less "grim" feel to all of this, though I do think the details of introducing Mat were interesting and a nice acceleration of his character. Which is a good thing, since the series will need to condense from the books, so moving character beats up in time is going to generally help with that.
This team is excellent, I have to say. Episode six is the best--least, I think that's the number of the one I'm thinking about--so be on the lookout for it. But they have real respect for the story, and are good writers. This is an enormously difficult project to undertake, and I'm quite impressed by Rafe and everyone involved.
Next Question:
If you don't mind me asking and if it's not allowed I'd understand, but was there a reason we didn't get to see the book prologue instead
Not complaining, I actually enjoyed the opening but was just curious.
Answer:
I think that there are a couple of reasons.
First, I think that Rafe wanted to frame this as Moiraine's story at the start--focus our attention on her quest to find the Dragon. Give her more a viewpoint, so to speak, in all of this. Second, he didn't want to predispose the viewer of thinking of the Dragon as a man. Finally, I think after the bad Billy Zane "prologue" he just wanted to do something fresh and new, something that didn't have baggage. The EoTW prologue is probably the single best fantasy prologue ever written--so I was skeptical when I heard he was doing this. But in the end, I think the decision is justifiable. It's certainly bold, and though I too would have liked to see the original, I think the statement made here is important. "Expect changes." It's setting a tonal promise from the get go that he's not filming the books scene by scene. It's not what I'd have done. But I respect these choices, and think what he did do--on paper--worked well.
This post was edited on 11/20/21 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 11/20/21 at 12:19 pm to nopants
Another Q/A from him that had some very interesting points:
Question:
One thing I thought you might have an answer to – do you know why Rafe and the writers decided to adapt so few of the book scenes? Episode 1 covers roughly Chapters 1-10 of Eye of the World, but almost nothing from the book makes it into the show. (I think there's the attack on the Al'Thor farmhouse, and a couple of moments with Rand, and that's about it.) Obviously you have to make cuts somewhere, but this feels less like "cutting" and more like "completely replacing".
Answer:
So, I have fought hard (but amicably) with Rafe on this very issue multiple times. I have several times said, "There is a perfectly serviceable scene from the books that happens here. Why not use that one?"
The explanations I get involve two primary themes. First theme is that of casting issues and the ensemble nature Rafe is shooting for. Things that are easy in a book are sometimes very difficult in a film, for real world reasons that are annoying. Logistics, casting realities, etc. This requires some changes.
An example of this is that the Wheel of Time eventually becomes a huge ensemble piece. The first book, though, is very Rand-centric. Rafe wanted to accelerate this ensemble feel; it's one of his visions for the story. This, however, requires many new manufactured scenes (some of which are suggested by the books.)
The other big reason he's doing this is for acceleration reasons. He has eight episodes. That's going to require a lot of acceleration. He's got to rewrite scenes in order to accomplish this, because simply doing the same scenes faster leads to disaster. (Watch the Golden Compass film to see why. You end up with people just walking up, spouting dialogue from the books in a non-dymanic way--then cutting to the next one. It's super dull.) Rafe's philosophy seems to be that he needs to construct new scenes that work to accomplish the same things as in the book, but are developed specifically for this type of narrative.
I say seems in that line because I don't want to speak for him. I'm not part of the writer's room; I wasn't there when they brainstormed these changes. I read the scripts in an early state, and offered feedback.
However, you can watch the first three Harry Potter movies to see why sometimes adaptation like this is needed. The first two are very faithful, and are also boring, because the pacing of a book is so different from a film or TV show. The third is much more heavily adapted, and is in my opinion the best of the films.
Game of thrones early seasons show you can adapt more straight across and be successful--but George worked in television, and his scripts are perhaps more naturally matched to that format.
Either way, I had your complaints, but this is one of the things that Rafe persuaded me on. I think this might be the only way he could do Wheel of Time in eight episodes in a way that works. And it's why I've said, for months now, I view this as a new turning of the wheel. It's not an adaptation of the books to me; it's an adaptation of the NEXT time these people are living this story.
Once again, this is just one person's perspective. Rafe can say this better than I do, and perhaps there are things about his motives that I misunderstood.
Question:
One thing I thought you might have an answer to – do you know why Rafe and the writers decided to adapt so few of the book scenes? Episode 1 covers roughly Chapters 1-10 of Eye of the World, but almost nothing from the book makes it into the show. (I think there's the attack on the Al'Thor farmhouse, and a couple of moments with Rand, and that's about it.) Obviously you have to make cuts somewhere, but this feels less like "cutting" and more like "completely replacing".
Answer:
So, I have fought hard (but amicably) with Rafe on this very issue multiple times. I have several times said, "There is a perfectly serviceable scene from the books that happens here. Why not use that one?"
The explanations I get involve two primary themes. First theme is that of casting issues and the ensemble nature Rafe is shooting for. Things that are easy in a book are sometimes very difficult in a film, for real world reasons that are annoying. Logistics, casting realities, etc. This requires some changes.
An example of this is that the Wheel of Time eventually becomes a huge ensemble piece. The first book, though, is very Rand-centric. Rafe wanted to accelerate this ensemble feel; it's one of his visions for the story. This, however, requires many new manufactured scenes (some of which are suggested by the books.)
The other big reason he's doing this is for acceleration reasons. He has eight episodes. That's going to require a lot of acceleration. He's got to rewrite scenes in order to accomplish this, because simply doing the same scenes faster leads to disaster. (Watch the Golden Compass film to see why. You end up with people just walking up, spouting dialogue from the books in a non-dymanic way--then cutting to the next one. It's super dull.) Rafe's philosophy seems to be that he needs to construct new scenes that work to accomplish the same things as in the book, but are developed specifically for this type of narrative.
I say seems in that line because I don't want to speak for him. I'm not part of the writer's room; I wasn't there when they brainstormed these changes. I read the scripts in an early state, and offered feedback.
However, you can watch the first three Harry Potter movies to see why sometimes adaptation like this is needed. The first two are very faithful, and are also boring, because the pacing of a book is so different from a film or TV show. The third is much more heavily adapted, and is in my opinion the best of the films.
Game of thrones early seasons show you can adapt more straight across and be successful--but George worked in television, and his scripts are perhaps more naturally matched to that format.
Either way, I had your complaints, but this is one of the things that Rafe persuaded me on. I think this might be the only way he could do Wheel of Time in eight episodes in a way that works. And it's why I've said, for months now, I view this as a new turning of the wheel. It's not an adaptation of the books to me; it's an adaptation of the NEXT time these people are living this story.
Once again, this is just one person's perspective. Rafe can say this better than I do, and perhaps there are things about his motives that I misunderstood.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 12:30 pm to nopants
Sounds like Rafe didn’t take anyones advice and since Sanderson is a super nice bloke, kind of held back on further complaints and criticisms. Not good when you don’t take the advice of the only living writer left of the WoT series who is privy more to TJ’s thoughts outside of his wife than anyone.
This is definitely Rafe’s per fanfic project and that pisses me off. It’s now right there in interview form that Rafe didn’t want to use any actual novel scenes. He thinks he can do WoT better than both RJ and Sanderson did. Clearly. frick that guy.
This is definitely Rafe’s per fanfic project and that pisses me off. It’s now right there in interview form that Rafe didn’t want to use any actual novel scenes. He thinks he can do WoT better than both RJ and Sanderson did. Clearly. frick that guy.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 12:39 pm to PhineasFreakaZoid
I see it as he is making it different from the books because its a different medium. Sanderson has some more comments on episode 2, I'm not sure if we're allowed to drop reddit links here but its easy enough to find his comments, just look for the user 'mistborn'
I've actually re-watched the first two episodes and I'm still enjoying it a lot. I'm just thinking as Sanderson did, that's it a different turning of the wheel and I'm fine with that.
I've actually re-watched the first two episodes and I'm still enjoying it a lot. I'm just thinking as Sanderson did, that's it a different turning of the wheel and I'm fine with that.
Posted on 11/20/21 at 4:51 pm to nopants
After watching the first three, I'd say it's pretty average so far overall.
The first episode kinda sucked, too rushed and choppy as hell. The entire Perrin being married and her dying thing is ridiculous, and a dumb addition. And they've barely focused on it with Perrin, almost like he just lost some random friend, and isn't that distraught at all. Randomly making Abell Cauthon an a-hole cheater and his wife a lush for no particular reason is dumb too. It looks like the show is going to have the showrunner is going to make changes just for the sake of changes issues. The fact that Sanderson tried to talk Rafe out of these dumb changes and he still then anyway makes me question his ability to run the show at all.
On the plus side the trollocs look good, the channeling looks decent, and it seems well cast for the most part. Thom Merrilin is very well cast, and Matt has been quite good (which makes it all the worse that he's been replaced for season two).
The second and third episodes were much better than the first, so hopefully it improves going forward.
The first episode kinda sucked, too rushed and choppy as hell. The entire Perrin being married and her dying thing is ridiculous, and a dumb addition. And they've barely focused on it with Perrin, almost like he just lost some random friend, and isn't that distraught at all. Randomly making Abell Cauthon an a-hole cheater and his wife a lush for no particular reason is dumb too. It looks like the show is going to have the showrunner is going to make changes just for the sake of changes issues. The fact that Sanderson tried to talk Rafe out of these dumb changes and he still then anyway makes me question his ability to run the show at all.
On the plus side the trollocs look good, the channeling looks decent, and it seems well cast for the most part. Thom Merrilin is very well cast, and Matt has been quite good (which makes it all the worse that he's been replaced for season two).
The second and third episodes were much better than the first, so hopefully it improves going forward.
Posted on 11/21/21 at 10:55 am to auyushu
I read only the first book eons ago. Nothing in episode 1 triggered any memories from the book. Had I simply forgotten everything or did the show stray far from the book? After 3 episodes, it seems like a cheap knock-off of LOTR but I'll probably continue to watch. I'm prepared for the downvotes.
Posted on 11/21/21 at 12:02 pm to Adajax
quote:
"A buffon? No. A lion stuffed into a horse stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different."
knife of dreams possibly my favorite
Posted on 11/21/21 at 1:32 pm to Adajax
The show strayed very far from the books. Like the only thing in the first episode that was close to the book was the fact that they were attacked by trollocs.
Posted on 11/21/21 at 2:00 pm to Fun Bunch
First scene with Egwene is her getting braids and accepted to the counsel with the ol push off the cliff initiation. 
Then Moraine just walks in and the town knows she's a Sedai. So much for that being a good reveal.
10 minutes into the 1st episode and they are already off base. Granted I'm only halfway through the 1st book so I can't act like a long time book snob. Just surprised already.
Then Moraine just walks in and the town knows she's a Sedai. So much for that being a good reveal.
10 minutes into the 1st episode and they are already off base. Granted I'm only halfway through the 1st book so I can't act like a long time book snob. Just surprised already.
Posted on 11/21/21 at 2:03 pm to Merck
Not sure I agree with this. There were definitely a number of changes, but the spirit of the book and the characters was pretty much identical.
To me the big problem with ep 1 is the pacing and lack of time to really set up the story.
People seem to forget GOT had 10 episodes and a much more linear story to tell in season 1 with little to no magic or other fantastical things. It was pretty much just 3 families struggling for political power. This is much different with fewer episodes.
To me the big problem with ep 1 is the pacing and lack of time to really set up the story.
People seem to forget GOT had 10 episodes and a much more linear story to tell in season 1 with little to no magic or other fantastical things. It was pretty much just 3 families struggling for political power. This is much different with fewer episodes.
Posted on 11/21/21 at 3:45 pm to Raistlins Apprentice
quote:
There were definitely a number of changes, but the spirit of the book and the characters was pretty much identical
Where?
Posted on 11/21/21 at 4:09 pm to PhineasFreakaZoid
Everywhere. The main characters are pretty much on identical paths to where they are going to end up. They made Mat's home life suck to give him more reason to be who he is as opposed to his annoying character in the first couple books. Perrin was given the wife backstory to help non readers understand his push/pull with violence that happens entirely inside his head in the books. Would not work on screen. Rand and Egwene are pretty much home runs as far as book to screen adaptations.
It feels like some book readers had the story set a certain way in their head and expected a scene for scene reproduction which was never realistic.
There are plenty of legitimate critiques, but complaining about changes overwhelming the story and altering characters, there's just no supporting evidence for any of that.
It feels like some book readers had the story set a certain way in their head and expected a scene for scene reproduction which was never realistic.
There are plenty of legitimate critiques, but complaining about changes overwhelming the story and altering characters, there's just no supporting evidence for any of that.
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