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re: What would you say to a Yazidi woman raped by ISIS who wanted an abortion?
Posted on 12/13/14 at 8:47 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 12/13/14 at 8:47 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
A lot of zealous, pro-life folks do endorse rape as an exception, but I'm not one of those. It isn't some band-wagon thing that I'm just missing out on here.
quote:
The only case I can possibly think of where a pregnancy should not be carried to term is where the death of the mother is inevitable, and even then, I believe every possible option should be looked into prior to abortion.
quote:
I would do everything in my power to prevent her from having an abortion if it came to that.
Damn.
Look, you have been nothing but civil throughout this whole debate and I can appreciate and respect that but these are the insane and delusional positions of a far right nutjob and you really need to get some fresh perspective on this issue and see why sensible people of all stripes and even zealous pro life people agree that rape is absolutely acceptable and morally ok for abortion.
1
Posted on 12/13/14 at 9:04 pm to Sentrius
I may be part of a dying breed that has convictions and tries like hell to stick by them, but that's just who I am. I think that an unborn child has intrinsic value and should not be killed for convenience, even if it is related to a traumatic event such as rape. If that is "extreme" these days, then so be it. It's just my belief and my opinion and I stand by it.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 4:37 am to FooManChoo
quote:No. Your views attend to biology, not spirituality. Though you'd assume the opposite.
I may be part of a dying breed that has convictions
Posted on 12/14/14 at 6:54 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I may be part of a dying breed
Let's hope so
Posted on 12/14/14 at 12:26 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I may be part of a dying breed that has convictions
Rest easy, your kind is slowly but surely dying out. And the country will be better for it.
I hope your daughter never has to go through a sexual assault, because we know she won't be able to count on you for support.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 12:30 pm to asurob1
Thread is still rolling along I see, sign of a highly polarized issue.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 1:27 pm to BayouBengal0505
quote:
Even if it could cause harm to her body?
Not if her life is in danger. If it would kill her, I'd abort unless she chose otherwise. At that point the mother's life gains priorty. Mainly pregnancies end in miscarriage, still births etc. So, fetal survival is not guaranteed. Especially early on. It's estimated that up to 50% of first time pregnancies are spontaneously aborted. Hard to get exact number because many occur before the realize they were pregnant and just think it was a heavy, late period.
If her life's not in danger, I'd want her to decide. The child has done nothing wrong and is as innocent of a victim as the mother. I never deal in absolutes.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 1:39 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Actually, my view is more spiritual than biological, though the biological aspect of it is definitely there.
No. Your views attend to biology, not spirituality. Though you'd assume the opposite.
I say it is spiritual because biology alone does not guide my opinion on the matter of abortion. How many people here understand that the unborn child is genetically no different than a 2, 20, or 82 year old human being? Those who are against abortion are so because they don't care what biology says about the child, they only care about its geographical location inside of its mother, giving her the right to kill that child at will.
If it were simply a matter of biology, this wouldn't even be an issue, but it is, so there has to be more to it. It's a battle of conflicting worldviews, IMO. I see the unborn child as having intrinsic value as a human being and those who are pro-abortion do not. At least the don't see any value that outweighs the choice of the mother for any reason.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 1:42 pm to OMLandshark
quote:You may hope so, but I hope not. I see a disturbing trend where life is more and more considered a trivial thing, and it's based on an inconsistent worldview. It's sad.
Let's hope so
Posted on 12/14/14 at 1:48 pm to asurob1
quote:
Rest easy, your kind is slowly but surely dying out. And the country will be better for it.
Better? Not at all. The moral fabric of society is unraveling at an alarming rate due to moral relativism and generations of people being taught that there is no truth except that which you decide for yourself. The abortion topic is just one symptom of it. Things will only get worse from here.
quote:Someone (maybe you?) said this earlier in the thread and it's just as untrue now as it was then. Support comes in many different ways and abortion isn't the only way to support a victim of sexual assault.
I hope your daughter never has to go through a sexual assault, because we know she won't be able to count on you for support.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 1:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:ORLY?
Actually, my view is more spiritual than biological
Let's test that.
Rosemary's Baby.
Abort or no?
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:03 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Seriously? You're going to test my principle based on a use case like that? It's like one of those absurd questions about whether or not God can microwave a burrito that is so hot that He can't eat it. It's nonsensical and frankly doesn't even deserve a response.
ORLY?
Let's test that.
Rosemary's Baby.
Abort or no?
But I'll humor you: would not abort.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:07 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Someone (maybe you?) said this earlier in the thread and it's just as untrue now as it was then. Support comes in many different ways and abortion isn't the only way to support a victim of sexual assault.
Forcing someone to carry the product of a rape to term. Just because it fits your world view of the mythological sky god is not supporting what is best for that person.
Yeah, I'd say that your daughter is lacking in support should something horrible ever happen to her.
Let me guess.
You probably believe she will never have sex as long as she is "living under your roof".
This post was edited on 12/14/14 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:07 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Right.
But I'll humor you: would not abort.
That takes care of your "spiritual" premise.
So we're back to strict biology.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:09 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Seriously? You're going to test my principle based on a use case like that? It's like one of those absurd questions about whether or not God can microwave a burrito that is so hot that He can't eat it. It's nonsensical and frankly doesn't even deserve a response.
But I'll humor you: would not abort.
So Lucifer's fetus is all good with you as long as it's inside the womb.
Because a child inside the womb is more important then the one being forced to give birth.
pathetic.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:20 pm to asurob1
quote:Like I said, there are multiple ways to support a victim of sexual assault and abortion isn't the only way, though it seems like the only option you are willing to consider.
Forcing someone to carry the product of a rape to term. Just because it fits your world view of the mythological sky god is not supporting what is best for that person.
quote:You clearly don't understand what the word "support" means.
Yeah, I'd say that your daughter is lacking in support should something horrible ever happen to her.
In a debate, it is extremely important for the terms to be defined appropriately so that the different parties are discussing and debating based on the same understanding of the topic. In this case, we have to be on the same page of what "support" means in order to appropriately discuss it, otherwise we will continue to talk past each other.
You seem more like a troll than a person interested in actual discussion, but in case you seriously want to discuss this, you'll need to start defining your terms since they don't seem to fit with the common definitions.
quote:I would hope that she wouldn't, but I believe that all people are sinners and capable of sinning, even when they know what they are doing is wrong.
Let me guess.
You probably believe she will never have sex as long as she is "living under your roof".
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:29 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Not at all. Let me clarify what I mean by it being a "spiritual" issue for me.
Right.
That takes care of your "spiritual" premise.
So we're back to strict biology.
My opinion on the topic of abortion is based on my religious beliefs about the sanctity of life, especially where children are concerned. My actions should be in accordance with my beliefs, and there is no command for me to sanction murder of an unborn child. A case could potentially be made for instances where the life of the mother is in danger, since it would be related to self defense, which is sacntioned.
My spiritual premise is not based on whether or not the child is the devil, which, as I said, is a ridiculous scenario to me, since I believe it is at odds with my spiritual beliefs. But even if it were not, I also believe that God's will would be done in such a scenario, since Satan cannot "win", and that God will take care of Satan in His own way. My job is to glorify God and obey Him, not take matters into my own hands based on fictional movie scenarios.
So even if in this fictitious scenario the child was the spawn of the devil, my beliefs do not allow me to murder it.
That is why it is a spiritual issue for me: it is based on my religious and spiritual beliefs.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:33 pm to asurob1
quote:Perhaps you haven't read what I have said thus far, or perhaps you didn't understand it. You could always ask for clarification, but you don't seem like a person who cares about that sort of thing.
Because a child inside the womb is more important then the one being forced to give birth.
pathetic
In my opinion, the life of the child inside of the womb is more important than the feelings or comfort (emotional, psychological, or physical) of the one "being forced to give birth".
As soon as the life of the mother is at stake, the child comes second, but I believe everything should be done to try to preserve both lives if possible.
See how I clarified? You used broad terms about the child being more important than the mother, but that's not what I believe. You have to be more specific about what, exactly, ranks higher in importance.
This post was edited on 12/14/14 at 2:34 pm
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:44 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Your premise is not based on whether the child's father is spiritually human, or in the case of Satan, human at all.
My spiritual premise is not based on whether or not the child is the devil
That is the point.
The biologic equivalent would be impregnation after mating with a Chimpanzee.
Posted on 12/14/14 at 2:49 pm to asurob1
quote:
So Lucifer's fetus is all good with you as long as it's inside the womb. Because a child inside the womb is more important then the one being forced to give birth.
The insane person has publically admitted that Keltic Tiger's sister having an abortion is as evil of an act as killing a 5 year old in cold blood at a pizza party. He's clearly insane and can't be reasoned with.
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