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re: Was the Civil War Fought Because of Slavery? It Depends on Which Side You View
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Come on SFP ... not you too????
The rationality was primarily based in protecting slavery.
Explain " 'the rationality'... primarily based in protecting slavery" when slavery was Constitutionally protected.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:44 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
The Civil War was fought over one indisputable reason - States rights
Which states were for state's rights?
It sure as hell wasn't the southern states.
Bad as they whined about northern state's making state laws that freed black slaves who made it across their borders, no way anybody can argue that they were for state's rights.
Not with a straight face, anyway.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:46 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Explain " 'the rationality'... primarily based in protecting slavery" when slavery was Constitutionally protected.
You'd have to ask the southern states who seceded over the issue.
Many of the letters specifically citing slavery as the primary issue have been posted ITT
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:48 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:11 of them?????????
You'd have to ask the southern states who seceded over the issue.
quote:There are ONLY FOUR!
Many of the letters
Posted on 5/5/26 at 5:52 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
There are ONLY FOUR!
Don't be even more dishonest and ignore euphemisms like "domestic institutions" and the "oppression of the Southern slave-holding States"
If slavery wasn't such a driving issue, and it was more random political conflict having nothing to do with slavery, why was the Confederacy comprised of the largest slave-owning states? That dataset would never be accepted as random.
The language used by the leaders indicates slavery was the primary issue
The composition of the population of states who seceded indicates slavery was the primary issue
The legal and political conflict of the previous few decades indicates slavery was the primary issue
But yeah, it's silly to argue today that slavery was the primary issue.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:02 pm to Narax
You have the inability to comprehend
Anderson forces after seizing Sumter - 85
Confederate forces - approx 500
Anderson indeed surrendered. After he drew the ire of the secessionists. Of which he was ordered not to do
Youre a frickin moron. Buchanan was the duly elected President. He wanted no bloodshed. Anderson was a rogue officer, and an idiot
He was responsible for killing his own man, just to make a point. Lincoln eventually had him removed from his post, because he yet again refused to follow orders
Then that rogue officer moved to France 4 years after the war ended. Some patriot
quote:
If they are invested or attacked by a force so superior that resistance would, in your judgment, be a useless waste of life, it will be your duty to yield to necessity, and make the best terms in your power.
Anderson forces after seizing Sumter - 85
Confederate forces - approx 500
Anderson indeed surrendered. After he drew the ire of the secessionists. Of which he was ordered not to do
quote:
This is far from the President’s intentions. You are to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject. It is neither expected nor desired that you should expose your own life or that of your men in a hopeless conflict
quote:
Anderson was a Patriot, a true Patriot.
He received order from a Traitor who hoped he would turn traitor as well.
Youre a frickin moron. Buchanan was the duly elected President. He wanted no bloodshed. Anderson was a rogue officer, and an idiot
quote:
One Union soldier was killed, and another was mortally wounded during a 50-gun salute to the flag just before the fort was surrendered.
He was responsible for killing his own man, just to make a point. Lincoln eventually had him removed from his post, because he yet again refused to follow orders
quote:
Speed met with Anderson and found him reluctant to implement Lincoln's wishes to distribute rifles to Unionists in Kentucky. Anderson, Speed wrote to Lincoln on October 8, "seemed grieved that [he] had to surrender his command... [but] agreed that it was necessary and gracefully yielded."
Then that rogue officer moved to France 4 years after the war ended. Some patriot
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:10 pm to wackatimesthree
Learn history - From the declaration of secession
quote:
It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.
It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.
Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.
Our decision is made. We follow their footsteps. We embrace the alternative of separation; and for the reasons here stated, we resolve to maintain our rights with the full consciousness of the justice of our course, and the undoubting belief of our ability to maintain it.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:13 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property.
What, by chance, are they referencing here? What kind of property?
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:14 pm to RFK
We are still paying for the decision to bring slaves to this country. It was the original sin of our forefathers. A short sided decision we won’t ever shake.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:14 pm to Narax
quote:
quote:
and seized it during a time of no hostilities
That is categorically false, if you were being honest you would admit that.
I never said that.
You quoted me in my post were quotes from another's post.
You call me out for not being factual about something I never typed is a bit dishonest.
quote:
Fact, they dressed in civilian clothes so as to disguise their identities, which at the time was considered an act of war.
First, thats not a fact, you obviously saw that on YouTube.
Anderson did have his men turn their overcoats inside out and take off their hats as armed South Carolinans already had them under a state of siege.
Why lie? Why call it a fact when it clearly isnt.
Someone felt they needed to enhance the historical record with lies to convince you and people like you.
I misspoke about civilian clothes when they traversed from Moultrie to Sumter. Either way, they concealed their identities so as to look like civilians.
But in reading memoirs and accounts of that night, I can't find where they were under siege or faced hostilities as you have stated.
I can provide links to Doubleday and Crawford's memoirs from that night.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 6:53 pm to Cuz413
A little perspective. Slavery was world wide and had existed since the beginning of mankind. Slavery existed in the Northern States, from the beginning of the settlement of America.
With the beginning of the industrial revolution and the influx of Irish settlers, the north no longer had a need for slaves and the associated cost of housing, feeding and medical care. They had cheap Irish labor & child labor. That labor lived in squaller and died by the 10's of thousands at the hands of the greedy northern industrialist.
So, all this moral superiority the North pretends to have as non slave states is really hypocrisy at the highest level. The North used the tariffs on southern cotton to fund the Infrastructure of the north, to keep industry for themselves, while leaving out industrialization in the south. They have felt that they were superior to southerners and still do to this day.
Screw those yankees. We should shut off the valve to the oil and let those yankee bastards freeze in the dark. (borrowed from the 1970's)
With the beginning of the industrial revolution and the influx of Irish settlers, the north no longer had a need for slaves and the associated cost of housing, feeding and medical care. They had cheap Irish labor & child labor. That labor lived in squaller and died by the 10's of thousands at the hands of the greedy northern industrialist.
So, all this moral superiority the North pretends to have as non slave states is really hypocrisy at the highest level. The North used the tariffs on southern cotton to fund the Infrastructure of the north, to keep industry for themselves, while leaving out industrialization in the south. They have felt that they were superior to southerners and still do to this day.
Screw those yankees. We should shut off the valve to the oil and let those yankee bastards freeze in the dark. (borrowed from the 1970's)
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:05 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
You have the inability to comprehend
I guess your momma told you if you believe something hard enough you manifest it?
quote:
Anderson forces after seizing Sumter - 85
Confederate forces - approx 500
Anderson indeed surrendered.
With no ability to threaten his position until much later.
He held it from Dec 26th to April 13th.
He also had zero casualties until after the bombardment.
We all know you would have surrendered, but Anderson was a much better man than you.
quote:
Youre a frickin moron
Oh Irony...
The guy who has no clue about history, has made multiple false claims, and doesn't know he's quoting a New York Times Article...
Doesn't realize how sad he is...
quote:
Buchanan was the duly elected President. He wanted no bloodshed.
Oh if you only read a little further, he wanted no bloodshed until he left office, he told both sides what they wanted to hear.
quote:
Anderson was a rogue officer, and an idiot
He followed his instructions to the letter, but not the traitorous intent of the SoW.
quote:'Yes, he wanted to honor his flag, and a gun accidentally killed 2 of his men.
He was responsible for killing his own man, just to make a point.
quote:
Lincoln eventually had him removed from his post, because he yet again refused to follow orders
Wow, more lies, this is a habit of yours, aren't you ashamed to be this way?
Let's go to the text again, that claim comes from one letter From Speed to Lincoln which points more to wanting a younger more aggressive commander and not a cautious hesitant one.
https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/mss/mal/123/1235000/1235000.pdf
It's funny how you hate on a great American but give no blame to the inbred South Carolina Elite that kicked off a war that killed so many.
quote:
Then that rogue officer moved to France 4 years after the war ended. Some patriot
... He went to a Spa 2 years before dying because his health was that bad.
If you knew anything about the time period you would realize taking the spa was common for those in bad health.
You should read up on it.
The man was dying.
You prefer to shite on his name like an animal.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:10 pm to Cuz413
quote:
I never said that.
You quoted me in my post were quotes from another's post.
You call me out for not being factual about something I never typed is a bit dishonest.
Dude, you started it off as a response to me
That's exactly what you posted I took that as a defense of something that is factually wrong.
If that was incorrect and you weren't defending his points then I apologize for assuming.
quote:
I misspoke about civilian clothes when they traversed from Moultrie to Sumter. Either way, they concealed their identities so as to look like civilians.
It's a good question of they were trying to stealth or blend in, either way South Carolina was looking for boats.
quote:
But in reading memoirs and accounts of that night, I can't find where they were under siege or faced hostilities as you have stated.
The Demon of Unrest good book, little left wing, but it's got good sources.
quote:
I can provide links to Doubleday and Crawford's memoirs from that night.
I'd appreciate that.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:13 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:They felt it was rational
So 11 separate states seceded vis a vis no rational process.
No free state seceded
Only slave owning states
All the states that put reasons for seceding, list slavery as the reason
The order of secession pretty nearly falls in order of largest to smallest per capita slaveowning states
You are being generously obsequious to a position with no merit or benefit other than to obfuscate the obvious. For what? Avoiding uncomfortable truths?
I love the South, particularly the Deep South. Love it.
Love it's rich history and it's people. Even love studying the exploits of Nathan Bedford Forrest (who my ancestor rode with in the war) despite knowing what he founded later.
But I can still concede we were on the wrong side of that one issue.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:19 pm to RobbBobb
Yeah, let's learn history.
You're an idiot if you think what they said is more important than what they did.
And that's not even getting to the southern states objections to the northern states' laws about fugitive slaves.
If you believe that "state's rights" is what the war was about for the southern states, you believe that the "Inflation Reduction Act" of 2022 was really about lowering inflation.
You're an idiot if you think what they said is more important than what they did.
quote:
One of the clearest violations of states’ rights came with national conscription. In April 1862, the Confederate Congress passed the first national draft in American history, compelling white men to serve directly in the Confederate army. This law stripped governors of control over their militias and placed manpower firmly under national authority.
One of the clearest violations of states’ rights came with national conscription. In April 1862, the Confederate Congress passed the first national draft in American history, compelling white men to serve directly in the Confederate army. This law stripped governors of control over their militias and placed manpower firmly under national authority.
Conscription proved to be very unpopular in many places owing to exemptions, including the Twenty-Slave Law, passed by the Confederate Congress on October 11, 1862.
Georgia governor Joseph E. Brown, a lifelong states’ rights advocate, denounced conscription as unconstitutional. He warned that it made the central government “the judge of the extent of its own powers” and argued that it reduced the states to “mere provinces of a consolidated despotism.” Brown’s protest revealed the irony at the heart of the Confederate experiment: a government born in resistance to federal coercion now exercised coercive power on a scale the antebellum United States had never attempted.
Closely related was the Confederate government’s suspension of habeas corpus, which allowed arrests without trial and the detention of civilians suspected of dissent or desertion. According to historian Mark Neely, roughly 4,100 civilians were held by military authorities at some point over the course of the war.
Confederate President Jefferson Davis defended this expansion of executive authority as a wartime necessity, insisting that “public safety” sometimes required the temporary suspension of civil liberties. Yet this argument echoed precisely the reasoning Southern leaders had condemned when used by Abraham Lincoln.
By overriding state courts and civil law, the Confederate government placed national authority above state judicial sovereignty, contradicting the very constitutional philosophy it claimed to uphold.
The Confederacy also violated states’ rights through the impressment of private property. Beginning in 1863, Confederate agents seized food, livestock, and enslaved labor for military use, often at prices set by the government rather than the market.
North Carolina governor Zebulon Vance
This policy provoked widespread resentment among civilians and state officials alike. North Carolina governor Zebulon Vance complained that impressment reduced citizens to “dependence upon the mere will of the military authorities.” For small farmers and poor whites, impressment made clear that local control and property rights could be sacrificed whenever Richmond deemed it necessary.
In short, if the Confederate government needed something, it would have it and there was nothing a state could do about it. This included private property in the form of slaves.
Finally, we come to the institution of slavery itself. The Confederate Constitution permanently protected slavery from state interference. It explicitly prohibited any Confederate state from abolishing slavery and required that “the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected.”
In this crucial respect, the Confederacy denied states the right to determine their own domestic institutions. A state that wished to end slavery—an act entirely consistent with a robust theory of states’ rights—was forbidden from doing so. As Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens famously explained, the new government rested upon the “great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery…is his natural and normal condition.” States’ rights stopped where slavery began.
And that's not even getting to the southern states objections to the northern states' laws about fugitive slaves.
If you believe that "state's rights" is what the war was about for the southern states, you believe that the "Inflation Reduction Act" of 2022 was really about lowering inflation.
This post was edited on 5/5/26 at 7:21 pm
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:22 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:The Southern States were certain Lincoln was going to abolish slavery (he definitely was)
Explain " 'the rationality'... primarily based in protecting slavery" when slavery was Constitutionally protected.
This is further confirmed by Lincoln offering to not touch slavery, to prevent secession. Why do you suppose he only addressed that issue?
The South didn't believe him (and he was almost certainly lying to buy time).
"Honest Abe" lied a lot
This post was edited on 5/5/26 at 7:23 pm
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:23 pm to RobbBobb
quote:
All the more reason to blame rogue Union officers for poking the bear. They where told what would happen, they did it anyway, and it happened
Floyd has no one to blame but himself. His orders to Anderson gave him the discretion to act on his own initiative. Buchanan and Floyd were angry at Anderson's decision, but a review of the orders given to Anderson through the War Department via Don Carlos Buell absolved Anderson from any blame.
Here is what the orders said:
quote:
An attack on or attempt to take possession of either one of them [the forts] will be regarded as an act of hostility, and you may then put your command into either of them which you may deem most proper to increase its power of resistance. You are also authorized to take similar defensive steps whenever you have tangible evidence of a design to proceed to a hostile act.
A follow up message from Floyd on December 2, 1860, directed Anderson to, "exercise a sound military discretion," and avoid a hopeless sacrifice of his men if resistance would be futile. These orders gave the on-scene commander significant leeway to act defensively, including relocating to the strongest position (Fort Sumter, a more modern and defensible fort in the harbor) if he judged an attack imminent or the current position untenable.
This post was edited on 5/5/26 at 7:24 pm
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:26 pm to wackatimesthree
I am pretty sure the "State's Rights" mantra as a civil war slogan only became a thing when Lee wrote it as his reason for not leading the Union troops.
But I am not certain on that one, and am open to being wrong. . .and I really don't care to look it up.

But I am not certain on that one, and am open to being wrong. . .and I really don't care to look it up.
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:27 pm to Narax
quote:
Dude, you started it off as a response to me
Because you quoted that "no hostilities" line from RobbBobb post on Page 10 and framed it as if I said it. I never said that. You might have too many pages open
But I will say that in reading the linked books, tensions were high from both sides, but there were no hostilities. Confederates did keep eyes on Unionists at all times, the cannons at the Forts were pointed at Charleston.
quote:
It's a good question of they were trying to stealth or blend in, either way South Carolina was looking for boats.
quote:
To avoid her the boats under Major Anderson and Lieutenant Meade diverted their course along Sullivan's Island. Captain Doubleday's boat pushed directly across and was the first to arrive. For the moment it was thought best to turn back, but the men took off their hats and coats, concealing their arms and belts, so as to give themselves the appearance of workmen, and the boat pushed on. The steamer passed close by — within a distance of 100 yards — but instead of being upon her ordinary mission she was in the act of towing a vessel to the harbor bar. This was the only night since the establishment of the guard that the service had been interrupted.
Crawford
The genesis of the Civil war : the story of Sumter, 1860-1861
Doubleday
Reminiscences of Forts Sumter and Moultrie in 1860-'61
Posted on 5/5/26 at 7:51 pm to AUauditor
Yes and no. One of the biggest reasons was because people in the south didn’t like people from the north. Kinda of like politics today a lot of people on the left and people on the right don’t like each other. Slavery was the biggest reason.
There was a little over 3,700 freed black people that owned slaves. A lot of the black people that owned slaves bought family members out of slavery. There was around 3.5 million slaves and little over 12,000 were owned by black people. There wasn’t “many, many” black people that owned slaves. 99% plus were owned by white people
quote:
There were many, many free blacks who also owned slaves, because that was the needed labor of the day.
There was a little over 3,700 freed black people that owned slaves. A lot of the black people that owned slaves bought family members out of slavery. There was around 3.5 million slaves and little over 12,000 were owned by black people. There wasn’t “many, many” black people that owned slaves. 99% plus were owned by white people
This post was edited on 5/5/26 at 7:55 pm
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