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re: Was Russia Promised that Nato Wouldnt Expand to the East on inch?

Posted on 1/30/23 at 8:57 am to
Posted by ninthward
Boston, MA
Member since May 2007
22773 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 8:57 am to
quote:

Because on a global level, America hasn't been a good actor since before I can remember (I'm 38).
The words you're searching for are World War Two
Posted by SouthEasternKaiju
SouthEast... you figure it out
Member since Aug 2021
47223 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 8:58 am to
What difference at this point does it make?


That's where things went wrong. Not prosecuting corrupt Hillary and Obama running guns through Libya and getting a US amb. murdered. Zero repercussions.
This post was edited on 1/30/23 at 9:00 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
139046 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:01 am to
quote:

Transnistria, First Chechen War, Assassination of Gamsahurdia,...
Holy Cow!
Those are examples of "Russian predatory practices"?
Posted by MetArl15
Washington, DC
Member since Apr 2007
13559 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:03 am to
Probably, he’s an offensive realist.
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
14405 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:07 am to
quote:

Truth is, we lost our shite over the Cuban “missile crisis”, but NATO admitting Ukraine is like Russia setting up shop in Indiana.

Except Indiana is part of the US and Ukraine is not part of the Russian Federation.

Now if Mexico independently joined Russia you’d have an equivalency.
Posted by CarrolltonTiger
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
50291 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:18 am to
What do you call Russia continuing to occupy a portion of an independent Moldova with their 14th Army for the past 25 years?

Political murder is something you are cool with?
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
14405 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 10:43 am to
quote:

Examples in the 1992-1999 timeframe?


Your attempt to cherry pick 7 years of Russian history is actually comical.

First, you ignore centuries of Russian expansion at the expense of its neighbors.

Second, you whitewash the horrible experience of the former Warsaw Pact nations that were brutally occupied by the Russians for almost a half century.

Third, you ignore the desire of former conquered people like Lithuanians, Chechens, Estonians, Georgians, Latvians, Ukrainians, etc for independence from the not so tender hands of Mother Russia, and their only source of security living beside the expansionist bear, Defensive NATO membership!

Fourth, in late 1994 Yeltsin sent the army into Chechnya in the aftermath of a botched Russian-orchestrated coup against the secessionist president, Dzhokhar Dudayev. There were fears that if Chechnya succeeded in breaking away from the Russian Federation, other republics might follow suit.

Fifth, in 2000, just one year out of your cherry picked 7 golden years, Putin invaded Chechens again, and after years of pounding them, subdued them.

Sixth, in 2008, Russia under Medvedev, invaded Georgia and stole some of its territory.

Seventh, 2014, Russian forces invade Ukraine and take territory, primarily the Crimea.

Eighth, in 2015 Russia entered the Syrian Civil War in support of Syrian Pres. Bashar al-Assad the dictator that was nerve gassing his own people.

Ninth, from 2015-16 Russia cyber attacks crippled the Ukrainian electrical system.

Tenth, Russian fighter jets routinely violated NATO airspace in the Baltic in 2016, and nuclear-capable missile systems were deployed to the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad.

Eleventh, in February 2018, Russian mercenaries, Putin’s favorite the Wagner Group, with Syrian allies attacked the Americans at an outpost
near a crucial Conoco gas plant! After several hours of no American casualties, we killed about 200 Russians and 100 of their Syrian flunkies.

Twelfth, 2022 Russia again attacked its neighbor Ukraine trying to conquer the whole country by moving on its capital Kiev. Now they apparently will settle for Ukraine’s eastern provinces.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 10:48 am to
The Duchy of Muscovy has been expansionist for 800 years. It is genetic.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
139046 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:08 am to
quote:

Political murder is something you are cool with?
No.
Nor am I cool with misattribution of responsibility.

In terms of Moldova, that was a complicated sectarian civil war and vestige of the USSR break up, and as you know. I suspect a huge proportion of the population under Russian control wants to be under Russian control.
You don't?
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42649 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:23 am to
quote:

First, you ignore centuries of Russian expansion at the expense of its neighbors. Second, you whitewash the horrible experience of the former Warsaw Pact nations that were brutally occupied by the Russians for almost a half century. Third, you ignore the desire of former conquered people like Lithuanians, Chechens, Estonians, Georgians, Latvians, Ukrainians, etc for independence from the not so tender hands of Mother Russia, and their only source of security living beside the expansionist bear, Defensive NATO membership! Fourth, in late 1994 Yeltsin sent the army into Chechnya in the aftermath of a botched Russian-orchestrated coup against the secessionist president, Dzhokhar Dudayev. There were fears that if Chechnya succeeded in breaking away from the Russian Federation, other republics might follow suit. Fifth, in 2000, just one year out of your cherry picked 7 golden years, Putin invaded Chechens again, and after years of pounding them, subdued them. Sixth, in 2008, Russia under Medvedev, invaded Georgia and stole some of its territory. Seventh, 2014, Russian forces invade Ukraine and take territory, primarily the Crimea. Eighth, in 2015 Russia entered the Syrian Civil War in support of Syrian Pres. Bashar al-Assad the dictator that was nerve gassing his own people. Ninth, from 2015-16 Russia cyber attacks crippled the Ukrainian electrical system. Tenth, Russian fighter jets routinely violated NATO airspace in the Baltic in 2016, and nuclear-capable missile systems were deployed to the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. Eleventh, in February 2018, Russian mercenaries, Putin’s favorite the Wagner Group, with Syrian allies attacked the Americans at an outpost near a crucial Conoco gas plant! After several hours of no American casualties, we killed about 200 Russians and 100 of their Syrian flunkies. Twelfth, 2022 Russia again attacked its neighbor Ukraine trying to conquer the whole country by moving on its capital Kiev. Now they apparently will settle for Ukraine’s eastern provinces.


And that is all relative recent history. Great summation.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:25 am to
quote:

but NATO admitting Ukraine is like Russia setting up shop in Indiana.


Cuba.

Which they tried and we threatened nuclear war.

We are hypocrites of the highest order.
This post was edited on 1/30/23 at 11:26 am
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42649 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:28 am to
quote:

In terms of Moldova, that was a complicated sectarian civil war and vestige of the USSR break up, and as you know. I suspect a huge proportion of the population under Russian control wants to be under Russian control. You don't?


Why would you assume that???
None of these people know what it’s like to be free and independent.

Most people are proud of their heritage. Italians love their culture as do the Irish, the Germans, the Chinese, the Japanese, and yes the Russians.

But that doesn’t mean they would like to live under a Mussolini, a Hitler, a Mao Tse Tung, or even a Putin. If given a chance for a safe, independent nation; who really knows how they would vote?
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:32 am to
quote:

None of these people know what it’s like to be free and independent.


Our creating puppets doesn't do that for anyone either.
Posted by Powerman
Member since Jan 2004
173798 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:35 am to
quote:


Political murder is something you are cool with?

NC is a coward who likes to lick Putin's boots for some reason
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:38 am to
quote:

Political murder is something you are cool with?


If youre not cool with political murder, how the frick do you stand your own country?
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:40 am to
quote:

But that doesn’t mean they would like to live under a Mussolini, a Hitler, a Mao Tse Tung, or even a Putin


Good. Let them fight.

I hope Ukraine kicks arse, but not with our money and influence.

I'll bet most of the idiots promoting US involvement here bitched incessantly about our meddling in Middle East affairs.
Posted by sms151t
Polos, Porsches, Ponies..PROBATION
Member since Aug 2009
140863 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:41 am to
Somewhat off topic but somewhat applies here...

Wasn't Putin the only figure in Russia that could guarantee the Yeltsin family safety after he left office and promised would not retaliate for the millions of dollars/euros that the family stole from the Russian state?
Posted by doubleb
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
42649 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:43 am to
Russia placed their soldiers and offensive weapons in Cuba.

JFK decided to blockade Cuba in response. Bombing Cuba, and invading Cuba were also considered. He never threatened to nuke Cuba or Russia.

Negotiations avoided a major war and both Russia and the US compromised.

Ukraine is different. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. The ratcheted their invasion up in 2022. No US troops are in Ukraine, but Russian troops are.

Maybe if we had let Ukraine in NATO there would be no war, but instead Ukraine like Afghanistan, Georgia and Chesnia are hanging out there with no allies so Russia feels they can take what they want.

Fortunately for Ukraine the west has said enough is enough and they are making Russia pay dearly this time.


Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:46 am to
quote:

Russia placed their soldiers and offensive weapons in Cuba.


Yep.

quote:

Events Leading to the Crisis
In April 1961, the U.S. government backed a group of Cuban exiles in an armed attempt to overthrow communist Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. The infamous assault, known as the Bay of Pigs invasion, failed miserably, became a foreign policy black eye for President John F. Kennedy, and only widened the growing Cold War diplomatic gap between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

Still smarting from the Bay of Pigs failure, the Kennedy administration in the spring of 1962 planned Operation Mongoose, a complex set of operations orchestrated by the CIA and Department of Defense, again intended to remove Castro from power. While some of the non-military actions of Operation Mongoose were conducted during 1962, the Castro regime remained solidly in place.

In July 1962, Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, in response to the Bay of Pigs and the presence of American Jupiter ballistic missiles Turkey, secretly agreed with Fidel Castro to place Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba in order to prevent the United States from attempting future invasions of the island.


We've been hypocrites since the 60's at the minimum.

This post was edited on 1/30/23 at 11:47 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
139046 posts
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:48 am to
quote:

Why would you assume that???
None of these people know what it’s like to be free and independent.
Because they were Russian speaking Russian ethnics being undermined with prejudice by ethnic Romanians. The situation was similar to, but worse than that which led to separatist movements in the Donbass.
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