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re: Ukrainian Troops Staying Classy: Trolling Dead Russian Soldier's Mother Via Facetime

Posted on 3/30/22 at 11:59 am to
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 11:59 am to
quote:

quote:
How would it have been a better deal for them to align economically with the Russians?
They'd still own Donbas and Crimea. Sounds like a better economic deal to me.


And they might not have the current invasion but that wasnt my point.
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:06 pm to
quote:

quote:
you are a fricking idiot.
No, I'm simply literate and intellectually curious, which is apparently a differentiator in this instance.


I'm not going to call you an idiot but thats a take I think you need to elaborate on. Do you really think Putin saw NATO as threat and that invaded Crimea was a way to some how blunt that threat?
Posted by Lima Whiskey
Member since Apr 2013
22594 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:08 pm to
Regime change in Russia has been US policy for at least a decade.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:14 pm to
quote:

So you have no idea why the Ukrainians should have ever aligned themselves in any way with the Russians? but you expected them to not do what is in there interest and accept Russian influence?
Ukraine cut imports from Russia by about 2/3rds in 2014/15, and since then they've only imported ~30% of their pre-2014 numbers.

But the catalytic ember was not trade; it was always NATO. Russians view NATO as their enemy. The vast Russian politick views NATO that way. It is not a view in any way peculiar to Putin.

When NATO audaciously announced in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine will become members, Mother Russia took the safety off her gun and fingered the trigger. When Obama and Soros orchestrated a pro-Western coup d'etat in Kiev, and simultaneously rekindled Ukraine-to-NATO discussions, Russia walked into Crimea rather than risk ceding Black Sea control to NATO. Russian ethnics in Donbas, hopeful they too could separate, brought on a Civil War.

Trump stepped in, and changed the NATO conversation from risk-filled and senseless expansion, to fiscal accountability of major partners. Putin wasn't threatened. Ukraine was okay ... except for Donbas separatists and the defacto Crimean concession.

Fast fwd to the rigged US election and elevation of PotatoBrain to the Oval Office. NATO dialogue was reinitiated with Ukraine, Biden deliberately leaked those convos to Putin, and Russia predictably attacked.
Posted by TS1926
Alabama
Member since Jan 2020
8038 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:17 pm to
quote:

And liberals are still retarded for buying the media narrative without doing their own D


Not just liberals but a lot of neocons on this forum. It's funny how they believe the media is not gaslighting them in this one instance.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 12:18 pm to
quote:

Crimea was a way to some how blunt that threat?
100%. He's matter-of-factly stated that. Russia would not cede its most important Soviet-era Naval bases, and resultant control of the Black Sea to NATO.
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

100%. He's matter-of-factly stated that. Russia would not cede its most important Soviet-era Naval bases, and resultant control of the Black Sea to NATO.


I understand perception is reality but I can't figure out how NATO could be perceived as a real military threat to the Russian homeland when they still have the power to wipe every NATO country off the planet with the push of a button.
Posted by DesScorp
Alabama
Member since Sep 2017
10311 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 1:48 pm to
quote:

I understand perception is reality but I can't figure out how NATO could be perceived as a real military threat to the Russian homeland when they still have the power to wipe every NATO country off the planet with the push of a button.


It's not just the military threat of NATO. It's the cultural rot the West brings. And the Russians aren't wrong to be afraid of that.
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
55564 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 1:57 pm to
bullshite! The Russians invaded their country. NOTHING is off limits. Cut their balls off and shove them up their noses, then take photos and post them on social media. ANYTHING to dispirit them.
Posted by Penrod
Member since Jan 2011
55564 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 2:03 pm to
quote:

You're comparing a religious cult that was murdering innocent people over a guy forced to fight in a war against invaders.

Ehhh, not so fast. The Muslims would say that the US foreign policy was to maintain them in a constant state of oppression and religious persecution so that Arab dictators could keep selling oil to the west. This is fairly equivalent to invasion.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 3:08 pm to
quote:

I understand perception is reality but I can't figure out how
Right.
It takes us back to the rattlesnake analogy. A hiker means no threat to the snake, but the snake doesn’t know it, and so it strikes.

Putin expressed his concerns about NATO expansion just after assuming office. As a remedy he offered to have Russia join the alliance. NATO refused to consider it. Putin rightly took that as meaning NATO would never be an ally.

Things declined from there, and so you’re correct, perception is reality. The Entire Russian political establishment made its perception clear. We ignored it.
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 3:34 pm to
quote:

Putin rightly took that as meaning NATO would never be an ally.


But not real military threat..no? I mean MAD still applies right? I can see the economic, power and prestige angle for Putin. I do agree we ignored Putins resolve and did not see China taking Russia on as a junior partner.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 4:25 pm to
quote:

a junior partner
Just for a little perspective lest we come across as cavalier, that "junior partner" brings more nukes to the table than the rest of the entire world combined.
Posted by UncleFestersLegs
Member since Nov 2010
16880 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 4:31 pm to
quote:

The Russians invaded their country. NOTHING is off limits. Cut their balls off and shove them up their noses,
now do syria, yemen, Iraq etc
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 4:49 pm to
quote:

But not real military threat..no?
Is the hiker a real threat to the rattlesnake?

NATO is a MILITARY alliance.
It's not a bridge group, basketball league, or debate club.

NATO, a MILITARY alliance, proclaimed it would not consider Russia, a major military power, as an alliance partner. Why?

How should a post-Soviet, post-cold war Russia view that proclamation?

The Soviets were promised NATO would not expand eastward into ex-Warsaw Pact countries. NATO broke that promise. How should a post-Soviet, post-cold war Russia view that breach?

NATO's broken assurances severely undercut Russia's first democratically elected leader, Boris Yeltsin, who by all rights could have been a post-cold-war ally. That NATO action forced Yeltsin, out of political expediency, to appoint a Russian nationalist as his heir apparent.

Who was the Russian nationalist NATO's needless actions brought on? He was a gentleman named Vlad Putin. Starting to see a pattern?

Meanwhile, NATO announced Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries on the planet, WOULD BECOME a member. If you don't see a message in that for Russia, I don't know what to tell you.

The Art of Diplomacy demands its players thoroughly understand one another's positions. War is the failure of diplomacy. NATO failed in the former. Is that a surprise given NATO is .... wait4it .... a MILITARY alliance.
Posted by jonnyanony
Member since Nov 2020
15217 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 5:15 pm to
quote:

NATO, a MILITARY alliance, proclaimed it would not consider Russia, a major military power, as an alliance partner. Why?


Not really true. There have been several close points but Russia has never formally applied to NATO, which a former chief told Putin was how it worked.

Yelstin also pushed for it.

LINK
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138973 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 5:51 pm to
quote:

Not really true. There have been several close points but Russia has never formally applied to NATO
Putin made a PUBLIC inquiry.
He discussed it with Clinton. He also discussed it with George Robertson who headed NATO through 2003. Putin made it clear he wanted Russia to be part of western Europe and NATO. The ball was in NATO's court. NATO fumbled it.
Posted by ThuperThumpin
Member since Dec 2013
9372 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 6:22 pm to
quote:

NATO, a MILITARY alliance, proclaimed it would not consider Russia, a major military power, as an alliance partner. Why?


Here is some basic criteria for consideration to join NATO:
New members must uphold

democracy, including tolerating diversity.

--New members must be making progress toward a market economy.

--Their military forces must be under firm civilian control.

--They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

--They must be working toward compatibility with NATO forces.

Which of these criteria has Russia demonstrated over the last 20 years? I'll say Ukraine certainly hasn't either.

quote:

The Soviets were promised NATO would not expand eastward into ex-Warsaw Pact countries. NATO broke that promise. How should a post-Soviet, post-cold war Russia view that breach


Like Putin said, they should've gotten it in writing. Lol.

I do see your points. I'm still processing a lot of the failures on our side while not ignoring Putins role as well.

Posted by jonnyanony
Member since Nov 2020
15217 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 7:40 pm to
Well at least you're off the "NATO won't let them join!" thing.

What you're recalling was an informal discussion with Bill Clinton. Years later Putin asked NATO publicly why they weren't invited and NATO responded they had to apply. They never did.
Posted by SeeeeK
some where
Member since Sep 2012
30763 posts
Posted on 3/30/22 at 7:50 pm to
And you dickjaws on here actually chose sides.

frick Ukraine and Russia
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