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Truth, not victory, should be the purpose of argument
Posted on 10/4/26 at 9:59 am
Posted on 10/4/26 at 9:59 am
I started a thread earlier with a quote attributed to Socrates about resorting to slander is an acknowledgement of losing an argument.
In the best use of PoliBoard, Pepperoni correctly pointed out that the quote was falsely attributed to Socrates. Researching it, though, I found what I should have just said in the first place:
I realize I am annoying to the majority on PoliBoard...many of whom just want to post memes that are funny or make people feel good about what they already think. I realize most people here probably hate philosophy and debate.
On those occasions when I engage in argument, I genuinely want to know the truth. I'm not trying to "win." If, like Pepperoni, you correct me, I'm genuinely appreciative.
Maybe the best time saver would be to identify which threads are meant just for fun and which threads are meant for argument/discussion.
I apologize if this seems self-indulgent. They're probably at least a few people who share my attitude, though.
Cheers
In the best use of PoliBoard, Pepperoni correctly pointed out that the quote was falsely attributed to Socrates. Researching it, though, I found what I should have just said in the first place:
quote:
Socrates says the purpose of argument is truth, not victory.
In Plato's Gorgias (457e–458a), Socrates makes a striking point about what happens when people argue:
“People cannot easily … define their terms to one another, learn and teach themselves … but if they dispute about something … they grow angry and think that the other speaks out of envy … striving for victory rather than seeking what is proposed in the discussion.”
He then describes how such arguments can deteriorate into people insulting one another and saying shameful things about each other.
I realize I am annoying to the majority on PoliBoard...many of whom just want to post memes that are funny or make people feel good about what they already think. I realize most people here probably hate philosophy and debate.
On those occasions when I engage in argument, I genuinely want to know the truth. I'm not trying to "win." If, like Pepperoni, you correct me, I'm genuinely appreciative.
Maybe the best time saver would be to identify which threads are meant just for fun and which threads are meant for argument/discussion.
I apologize if this seems self-indulgent. They're probably at least a few people who share my attitude, though.
Cheers
This post was edited on 10/4/26 at 10:01 am
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:02 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
Truth, not victory, should be the purpose of argument
Agreed. If your initial argument doesn't hold up and you "lose" the argument that's not the worst outcome if you learn something in the process and adjust your position based on newfound truth. When you are completely unwilling to do that and are obsessed with winning the argument you've essentially created a positive feedback loop that ensures that you'll be a useless idiot.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:02 am to IvoryBillMatt
frick off Ivory!
ETA: Just kidding.
ETA: Just kidding.
This post was edited on 10/4/26 at 10:03 am
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:04 am to IvoryBillMatt
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:05 am to IvoryBillMatt
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:09 am to IvoryBillMatt
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:09 am to IvoryBillMatt
I'd rather be shown to be wrong here so I am not wrong 350 times in real life.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:11 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:The truth is, the OP title does not necessarily indicate an understanding of the quote it is being ascribed to.
Truth, not victory, should be the purpose of argument
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:16 am to LemmyLives
quote:
rather be shown to be wrong here so I am not wrong 350 times in real life
I don’t think inaccuracy here is negatively correlated with inaccuracy elsewhere. It’s not a classroom. Motivations will range from venting to socialization, and in some cases true organizing
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:19 am to dukkbill
quote:
I don’t think inaccuracy here is negatively correlated with inaccuracy elsewhere. It’s not a classroom. Motivations will range from venting to socialization, and in some cases true organizing
I’m here for news and the entertainment value.
A lot of people take this place WAY too seriously.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:19 am to IvoryBillMatt
Stop worrying about it and just roll with it
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:21 am to Powerman
quote:
your initial argument doesn't hold up and you "lose" the argument that's not the worst outcome if you learn something in the process and adjust your position based on newfound truth.
Yup. Admittedly, though, politics is about winning. Authoritarians, left and right, think the key to winning is tribalism irrespective of truth.
On the right, that's why so many people here think it's a sign of TDS to point out obvious lies made by the President.
A good example of this on the left was their vitriolic response to a Democrat legislator in Michigan thanking Trump for helping her access hydroxychloroquine. They would have literally rather that she died than admit the truth that Trump helped her.
That's probably a source of friction around here...politics vs truth.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:28 am to Jorts R Us
quote:
Stop worrying about it and just roll with it
Thanks. This was me just rolling with it...recognizing that people are here for different purposes.
The insults are worth the interactivity. They're just time consuming. It's me realizing I don't have to respond to each mindless insult.
Again, sorry for the self-indulgence, but they're are others in the same boat.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:30 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
The truth is, the OP title does not necessarily indicate an understanding of the quote it is being ascribed to.
Explain please if you want to.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:31 am to IvoryBillMatt
But sometimes you must first win in order to tell the truth, otherwise the powers against you will censor the truth.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:33 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
Again, sorry for the self-indulgence, but they're are others in the same boat.
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:33 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
On the right, that's why so many people here think it's a sign of TDS to point out obvious lies made by the President.
Your entire posting history here is one big pattern of: “I think Trump is the greatest president of my lifetime. BUT…” You then proceed to rip the man.
There’s an old axiom that states that “everything that comes before the word BUT is usually horseshite.”
So, taking all this into account, if you can’t fathom how people might perceive you to be, shall we say, a tad disingenuous, that would be a YOU problem.
This post was edited on 10/4/26 at 10:35 am
Posted on 10/4/26 at 10:41 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
Again, sorry for the self-indulgence, but they're are others in the same boat
Self indulgence should be fine. You have people engaging with you in your points. In fact that ratio is pretty high here in Sunday morning. We also will all have aspects of the environment that we don’t like. My bugaboo is those that jump in a good thread and try to make it all about themselves. Others will have different things they don’t like
If your seeking “the truth” you will find it, at least in what you perceive it to be. But if you want someone to curate it for you, then there are places and services for that which operate differently than a public board
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