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Posted on 8/1/26 at 10:32 pm to Champagne
quote:
Things got really bad in Revolutionary France once that trend to the Left culminated in its most extreme result. Is that particular model not a possible model that the USA will follow?
Charlie Kirk might argue that we are already there.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 8:42 am to RandRules
quote:
Regarding the GOPe, they fully understand the importance of a near 50/50 split between Rs and Ds to keep the status quo. Defeating the Democrats and their socialist ideas is not on their to-do lists. Besides, the GOPe are not even Republicans. They’re wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Lot of truth in what you said.
In your opinion regardless of their goals, is it still not preferable to keep them in the coalition to maintain a majority against the socialistswhile attempting to push them out of the party leadership and beating them in the primaries?
To me there are two separate battles to be fought:
1) achieve a GOP with a large enough tent to win general elections in Congress and hold the WH
2) defeat the GOPe in the primaries and within the party leadership to control and pass the agenda of MAGA/AF (I’m pro AF and support MAGA circa 2024)
Posted on 8/2/26 at 8:53 am to David_DJS
quote:
You're never going to win frick all when your first step is surrendering on the false premise that capitalism has failed Americans other than the wealthy.
Do you spend much time talking with men their age? Charlie Kirk did and he agreed that they had many legitimate causes for complaint.
I have many friends with HS and college age sons and spend time in the fall on campus for football talking with people that age and agree with him.
College graduate males got f’ed over hard any anyone with any sense of objectivity sees it.
They were told go to get good grades and go to college so they did.
To get there they had to deal with DEI policies which prioritized every living human being over them, taught them they were oppressors and forced them to rack up student loans for the privilege while 4th wave feminists called them rapists for hitting on them at parties and gold digging instagram influencer wannabes played 5 guys off each other for their attention.
Then they graduate into a workforce where the same DEI policies paired with globalist offshoring and H1B visas make it almost impossible for entry level positions while housing costs adjusted for inflation make rent and groceries very difficult for them to build wealth.
They don’t need handouts or fake empathy. We need to help them by ending DEI, purging feminist professors and thought leaders from schools and government and creating onshore jobs they can build wealth and for Gen X and boomers to stop acting like they grew up with the same conditions they did because they didn’t.
That’s it.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 8:57 am to mikeytig
quote:
no
Do you agree that we can use each other to defeat the socialist left in general elections while attempting to defeat them within the party via primaries and leadership changes?
I don’t know how we win general elections in the short term otherwise.
The alternative is to start a new party and I think the socialists would win while it’s being established to the point that it could attract a winning coalition nationally.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 9:10 am to tide06
quote:
Do you spend much time talking with men their age?
Yes, and typically at the end of the discussion they're not feeling like victims and understand the danger of buying into Leftist narratives.
quote:
To get there they had to deal with DEI policies which prioritized every living human being over them, taught them they were oppressors and forced them to rack up student loans for the privilege while 4th wave feminists called them rapists for hitting on them at parties and gold digging instagram influencer wannabes played 5 guys off each other for their attention.
You're going off on tangents here. Why would DEI policies nudge conservatives to the political Left? I'm not following your argument here.
quote:
They don’t need handouts or fake empathy. We need to help them by ending DEI, purging feminist professors and thought leaders from schools and government and creating onshore jobs they can build wealth and for Gen X and boomers to stop acting like they grew up with the same conditions they did because they didn’t.
I'm all for ending DEI and addressing the whacko liberals leading our universities. I don't understand the point about boomers and X'ers - who said conditions decades ago were exactly like they are today? The point is conditions aren't any tougher than they were years ago. Different isn't the same as tougher.
It's unfortunate this victim mentality has creeped into the American Right. The Left has been drowning in it for decades.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 11:38 am to tide06
I agree. It is preferable to keep them in the coalition, but any support from the party should cease when reelection comes around. Provide money and support to the non GOPe candidate. As we saw with Lindsey Graham and others, this is not the way things currently work.
At the end of the day, I’m not sure keeping these guys around benefits the party at all though. They’re still going to vote against any legislation that actually makes a difference (see SAVE Act). And keeping them around makes it more likely they will get reelected.
At the end of the day, I’m not sure keeping these guys around benefits the party at all though. They’re still going to vote against any legislation that actually makes a difference (see SAVE Act). And keeping them around makes it more likely they will get reelected.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 12:21 pm to David_DJS
quote:
Why would DEI policies nudge conservatives to the political Left? I'm not following your argument here.
Because the young male vote is intensely unhappy with the status quo.
If they don’t believe the right can deliver them a better life they are quite vocal about trying socialism instead.
quote:
I'm all for ending DEI and addressing the whacko liberals leading our universities. I don't understand the point about boomers and X'ers - who said conditions decades ago were exactly like they are today? The point is conditions aren't any tougher than they were years ago. Different isn't the same as tougher.
Many in this thread and others are convinced the thing holding back Gen Z and young millennials is coffee and avocado toast.
Nearly every objective economic analysis indicates that’s not the case. Not with regard to education, cost of living, inflation or jobs, much less building families.
They want and expect us older GOP voters to deliver better outcomes and the GOP as it currently exists nationally simply isn’t outside of reigning back in DEI.
In a political marketplace of ideas I’m suggesting we need to provide them with a better offering or our political opponents will.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 12:38 pm to RandRules
quote:
At the end of the day, I’m not sure keeping these guys around benefits the party at all though. They’re still going to vote against any legislation that actually makes a difference (see SAVE Act). And keeping them around makes it more likely they will get reelected.
Well let’s be blunt about who they are.
In my opinion they are the political and economic manifestation of the chamber of commerce, that is the small and midsize business owners.
What I would suggest we are ultimately arguing is whether a populist party (MAGA/AF) whose base is largely comprised people who want to advocate for policies good for workers (more jobs, better wages, socially conservative) can coexist with an interest group that is actively trying to outsource jobs and limit wages as we saw during the NAFTA/Bush era.
Prior to the emergence of the DSA in the DNC I thought eventually they’d split, join with the DNCe and technocratic billionaire class and we’d see the left resurgent.
I still suspect the tech bros/AI crowd will partner with the socialists for power because the socialists don’t really want to work and the tech bros just want AI to be given an open path to total dominance and don’t believe humans will have much of a role post AI so they can kind of coexist symbiotically with the government and big business basically being one in the same (ironically the Nazi fascist model from WW2).
I don’t those factors apply to the COC/GOPe crowd so I see their home as an uneasy alliance with the MAGA/AF as we see today where neither side gets what they really want but neither side loses to the socialists.
The only other path is that MAGA works economically and creates enough jobs to take over the party comprehensively, but we aren’t anywhere close to seeing that yet unfortunately.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 2:49 pm to tide06
quote:
Because the young male vote is intensely unhappy with the status quo.
Do you mean to suggest that if the GOP doesn’t beat back DEI and male bashing, young conservatives will start voting for the people responsible for DEI and male bashing? Because that doesn’t make sense.
quote:
Many in this thread and others are convinced the thing holding back Gen Z and young millennials is coffee and avocado toast.
Well, the more recent generations aren’t known for their frugality or willingness to delay gratification, so that’s why the $8 coffee thing is a thing. But that’s beside the point IMO.
My argument is they’re not being held back.
quote:
In a political marketplace of ideas I’m suggesting we need to provide them with a better offering or our political opponents will.
Maybe that better offering is knowledge and experience that convinces them that they are in a good place, have opportunities galore, and how dangerous (and sad) it is to accept such a false-narrative designed to usher in more and more socialism.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 4:14 pm to David_DJS
quote:
Do you mean to suggest that if the GOP doesn’t beat back DEI and male bashing, young conservatives will start voting for the people responsible for DEI and male bashing? Because that doesn’t make sense.
DEI is among the concerns of the young male vote according to polling but it’s only one of a plethora of items they want addressed.
The right is offering some progress on DEI and virtually none on the other items most of them hold as higher priorities.
quote:
Well, the more recent generations aren’t known for their frugality or willingness to delay gratification, so that’s why the $8 coffee thing is a thing. But that’s beside the point IMO. My argument is they’re not being held back.
Your opinion that they aren’t being held back is immaterial to them.
They feel they are and the left is offering them a different path to entice them to vote for them.
You and the GOP are telling them to eat cake at the moment.
If you don’t care if they swing left fine, I am not ok with that.
quote:
Maybe that better offering is knowledge and experience that convinces them that they are in a good place, have opportunities galore, and how dangerous (and sad) it is to accept such a false-narrative designed to usher in more and more socialism.
They would say that’s gaslighting and laugh at you and I would agree.
This comes down to you think things are fine, they don’t and I lean towards their perspective but am trying to explain that if you want to build a coalition you have to do things to attract people who want something they don’t have and you aren’t.
If you and the GOP won’t commit to offering them things the other party will and we will lose.
Posted on 8/2/26 at 4:38 pm to tide06
That is pretty intuitive and I agree with almost all your points. What makes you say the GOPe is the “political and economic manifestation of the chamber of commerce”? Older folks, maybe, but most of the people I know, even the older people, do own small businesses and hate the GOPe more than I do.
Posted on 8/3/26 at 3:36 pm to tide06
quote:
Your opinion that they aren’t being held back is immaterial to them.
But the opinion of Leftists selling socialism that they're being held back, that is material to them.
That's why I suggest it's scary how enthusiastic young conservatives are to accept the Leftists' brand as "victim".
quote:
You and the GOP are telling them to eat cake at the moment.
I don't speak for the GOP, and trust me - they don't want me to be doing that. I find MAGA/the GOP to be liberal-lite.
quote:
They would say that’s gaslighting and laugh at you and I would agree.
Think about what you're arguing here. They (and you) are more than happy and excited to accept the yoke of "victim" the Left is offering, and you fight objective reality to do so.
That you/they are unwilling to even consider the possibility that it's the Left, the assholes that have sold the country down the river on Covid response, the open border, DEI, etc. - maybe, just maybe, the "young people have been screwed by this economy and it's pretty much boomers' fault" is NOT the one narrative of the last dozen trotted out by the Left that's fair/accurate.
quote:
If you and the GOP won’t commit to offering them things the other party will and we will lose.
And they can join blacks, women, trannies, public school teachers, federal workers, etc looking to Dems to take care of them in exchange for accepting whatever crazy shite Democrats want to impose on the country.
Posted on 8/4/26 at 11:24 am to David_DJS
The crisis is being driven by excess benefits for already wealthy retirees, paid for by younger workers. So the generational divide isn’t something we can choose to accept or reject.
When this starts collapsing, it’ll affect everyone. We will at least be united by that.
When this starts collapsing, it’ll affect everyone. We will at least be united by that.
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Posted on 8/4/26 at 11:34 am to E Redcoat
quote:Thia is irrelevant. And you’ve swallowed the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for means testing SS.
The crisis is being driven by excess benefits for already wealthy retirees
SS was never designed to be a redistribution program. If it’s insolvent, end it. Turning it into yet another transfer payment is silly.
This post was edited on 8/4/26 at 11:38 am
Posted on 8/4/26 at 11:37 am to E Redcoat
quote:
The crisis is being driven by excess benefits for already wealthy retirees, paid for by younger workers. So the generational divide isn’t something we can choose to accept or reject.
When this starts collapsing, it’ll affect everyone. We will at least be united by that.
But there aren't enough younger tax payers, only welfare net negatives, illegals and recent migrants.
So the younger workers who will never see those benefits and who never saw the GOPe do anything for them whatsoever are going to be fine when their socialist friends realize they have the votes to raid 401ks via "taxes" and other investments via unrealized capital gain taxes like they're doing in Europe because they never really got on the wealth ladder older generations did and as such don't have 401ks or mutual funds.
Netherlands Unrealized Gains Tax
Again, the GOP coalition needs to do enough to get them onto the "American Dream" path to avert socialism and they aren't and haven't because most of the people making the decisions nationally don't see the issues and don't care because it isn't impacting them... yet.
Hell most of the people making the decisions in DC WANT the GOP coalition to lose to ensure the globalist agenda they want gets enacted because they're convinced they will be the bureaucratic class that will semi benefit from it at the expense of everyone else including their voters.
Posted on 8/4/26 at 11:51 am to Taxing Authority
It’s not propaganda it’s literally true.
It’s also literally true the SS is a redistribution program. And it’s completely unaffordable and inefficient. Pretending this is some untouchable entitlement has to stop.
It’s funny to pretend this propaganda though. Like on behalf of what party or interest? There isn’t a single politician with any real power advocating fixing any of this with the necessary cuts to inordinate spending on entitlements for the elderly.
LINK
It’s also literally true the SS is a redistribution program. And it’s completely unaffordable and inefficient. Pretending this is some untouchable entitlement has to stop.
It’s funny to pretend this propaganda though. Like on behalf of what party or interest? There isn’t a single politician with any real power advocating fixing any of this with the necessary cuts to inordinate spending on entitlements for the elderly.
quote:
These data suggest that Social Security is not merely social insurance—which would insure against low incomes—but rather a universal system currently designed to pay large benefits (exceeding lifetime contributions) even to wealthy Americans. This contributes to widening Social Security deficits that must be funded by general revenues.
LINK
Posted on 8/4/26 at 11:57 am to E Redcoat
quote:Bernays would be so proud.
It’s not propaganda.
quote:Somewhat. To the degree that payouts are not 1:1 matches with contributions. Congrats, you’ve describe the problem.
It’s also literally true the SS is a redistribution program.
quote:100% agree. But you’re making an argument for means-testing, not ending it.
And it’s completely unaffordable and inefficient. Pretending this is some untouchable entitlement has to stop.
This post was edited on 8/4/26 at 11:58 am
Posted on 8/4/26 at 12:03 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Thia is irrelevant. And you’ve swallowed the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for means testing SS.
It's not that much money on a monthly basis. If one wants to wait until they are seventy, then it can be as much as five grand. Take is at 62 and it is just under three grand a month. If a retiree is wealthy, then medicare will take a chunk of the SS benefits. Say one is lucky enough to have a one million a year retirement income of which 60 grand is SS, they will pay 800 bucks a month for Medicare. If one is going to depend on SS for their retirement income, it's a low bar. I'd suggest saving and investing money now.
Posted on 8/4/26 at 12:04 pm to Taxing Authority
I actually haven’t made an argument for any specific policy intervention only a statement that massive payouts to the elderly are our primary budgetary problem. I’m open to all solutions, including ending it. That would be an even more difficult to achieve policy end, but I am there with you. I think the Manhattan Institute has done a lot of good work and pointing out there probably multiple ways that might be more easily achievable to correct our financial course. I wish there was some politician brave enough to sign onto that project, but I think we’re going to do it by just dealing with the collapse and hyper inflation. In the meantime, we will obsess about reflecting pools, trannies and doing pointless wars in the Middle East.
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