re: Self-esteem & the “Crisis of the Young”

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External validation? Do you think posters who are routinely heavily downvoted are seeking external validation?

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Any attention is good attention when you’re a narcissist

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In the Introduction, Becker mentions the "Crisis of the Young," arguing that youth in the late 60s/early 70s were dropping out of social expectations (like college or practicing a religion) because they realized society deprives them of a chance to be find dignified meaning.

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What "dignified meaning" were they being denied?

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The poster is seeking stimulation, connection, competition, conflict,

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Which ultimately resolves into a validation of some kind.

"I won the competition, therefore I am worthy."

"I was able to make a connection, therefore I am worthy."

That just describes the nature of the validation.

This is one of those times I feel like I'm repeating the same thing over and over again failing to move the needle of the conversation, but also not knowing how else to say it.

I asked Google, "Is everything we do ultimately a strategy for validation?"

Google AI answer below:

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It is a deep question. Ultimately, every human action can be tied to a core psychological need for validation.

We seek to validate our existence, our worth, and our place in the world.

However, "validation" means more than just fishing for compliments.

It is about understanding reality and maintaining a secure sense of self.

It breaks down into two main areas:

1. Social Validation. As human beings, we are wired to connect. Seeking external validation is often a basic drive to belong.

Social survival: When early humans cooperated, they survived. When they were rejected from a tribe, they died. Our brains still treat social approval as a reward. This reward is called dopamine.

Real-world example: Getting a degree, posting on social media, or buying a new car. These actions show others we are capable, which earns us respect and security.

2. Internal Validation. We also do things to validate ourselves. This means proving we are competent, safe, and true to our own values.

Self-discovery: We do hard things or make art to prove we are capable. This builds our confidence and helps us trust our own judgment.Real-world example: Practicing a sport, finishing a puzzle, or keeping a promise. These actions validate our self-image.

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Maybe Google AI will help. What I just quoted above is what I think, what I've been trying to communicate.

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You are the female version of SFP

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Maybe literally.

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You are the female version of SFP

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What similarities do you notice? The only thing we have in common is that our posts are heavily downvoted.

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At the time Becker was writing, young men were being sent to die in Vietnam in a highly contentious war. Many didn’t experience dying in Vietnam as dignified or meaningful. They weren’t fighting Nazis or defending their homeland in the way previous generations understood their sacrifices. Instead, many saw themselves as expendable participants in a bureaucratic conflict whose purpose they neither understood nor believed in.

Civil rights struggles exposed contradictions in American ideals. The upheaval surrounding Vatican II and broader secularization caused many people to question religious authority. Divorce rates were climbing. Confidence in government collapsed during Vietnam and Watergate. The intellectual foundations of neoliberalism were beginning to spread, emphasizing individual responsibility over traditional institutions.

There was a pervasive sense of social instability.

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I have to wonder how much of that was driven by the natural inclination towards rebellion by young adults? The Baby Boomer generation was massive (60%-70% larger than the previous generation) and they also came along right as broadcast technology was bringing video to the masses (television sets went from being something only the rich had to something most people had and that was in only around a decade (in 1950 only ~1% of households had tvs, by 1960 that was up to 75%-80%). A lot of the focus for those early years was at least partially on the Boomers (Howdy Doody, Leave It To Beaver, American Bandstand, Mickey Mouse Club, etc) with some estimates being has high as 70% of the shows from 1950-1960 being geared towards them. As they moved through life, that aspect of having the focus of society grew as they moved into adulthood.

This all had the impact (whether intentional or not) of feeling like they were the center of the universe. That sort of feeling of power from such a massive group of young people in that naturally rebellious stage has to have had an effect. Along with that, the larger a group is the more momentum it naturally generates as it moves toward some objective.

All this is to say that I wonder how much of that pervasive sense of social instability was driven more by such a large and "privileged" group (using that term a bit loosely, to give a category to the outsized attention they received) than by the actual issues they took up.

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Sometimes you swing and miss.

But you still swing.

And missing usually means that you start swinging harder to compensate.

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Unless someone doesn't have a bat, or arms to swing one with.

There are so many variables that impact validation.

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For some reason (actually, likely due to feminism) a myth exists that only men primarily respond to physical or social cues driven by reproductive drive, but that data doesn't support that.

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I don't think you're addressing the distinction I'm making. I'm not denying that both sexes evaluate potential partners using physical or social cues. My point, and I believe this was Becker's point as well, is that being reduced only to those traits can be profoundly alienating.

Men can experience this, too. I'm sure some people see being sought after for one's ability to provide a paycheck as validating. Maybe some people think being desired because of how someone looks is validating.

Becker's point resonated because it addresses my deeper fear, which isn't being disliked or even rejected. It's being reduced to a body whose value exists only in relation to someone else's desires. Perhaps years of objectification have made me especially sensitive to noticing it, but .I often feel inundated with confirmation that the being I invest in and cultivate is unimportant, while the vessel that temporarily houses that being is what actually matters.

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It's a very sloppy, poorly expressed contention, and indicative of Becker's background as an anthropologist rather than psychologist. The implication that a man partners with a woman for the sole physical satisfaction of sex is ridiculous. Becker would have done much better approaching his point anthropologically than as a pretend psychoanalyst.

The anthropologic/evolutionary approach addresses men's instinctive draw to healthy/attractive/reproductive-capable women vs women's draw to men deemed likely to be stable long-term provider-protectors. The evolutionary advantage of those components is self-evident, and we've discussed them previously. But it is foundational to a woman's inherent disinterest in the proverbial one-night stand.

That does not mean a woman is not physically attracted to a nice looking man though, nor does it mean a man is not attracted to intelligence, personality, or professional capacity in a woman. To the contrary, most men seek fairly comparable intelligence in a partner, e.g., someone who will not be out of place in his social circles, or in conversation. Certainly Becker would not contend otherwise were he questioned about it, but the piece you cite does a pathetic job in teasing out the argument.

Insofar as sex is a physically pleasurable act between adults, but carries psychosocial baggage, let's try to strip that away with an analogy. The analogy would be massage, another physically pleasurable activity. If you visit a massage therapist, you gain pleasure from the physical act. There is no cognizance of the therapist's own distinctive inner personality in the equation. OTOH, if your husband gives you a massage your attachment of those thoughts accompanying the physical act is far more likely if not inevitable. Sex itself follows a similar equation, for men in particular.

In my opinion, self esteem comes from 4 sources: a sense of purpose, a feeling of accomplishment, praise from others, and belonging to something larger than yourself.

The problem with how self-esteem psychology in the 60’s was taught was that it confused the causes with effects. They saw self-esteem as a pre-requisite for achievement rather than self-esteem as a result.

The secularism of the latter 20th century rapidly eroded the institutions that gave children belonging to something larger than themselves and their families. The Great Society program annihilated the nuclear family the result of which was destabilized child-rearing and family financial situations. They were taking children who felt lost because their parents weren’t around (often dad out of the picture, mom always working), who had no connection with a church or similar organization, that what was holding them back was a lack of praise. So, they focused on praising people who didn’t perform, avoiding praising people who did, and exempted from negative consequences those who failed in order to protect their self-esteem. The lack of consequences eroded any sense of purpose or incentives for accomplishment, and the praise was fake. What resulted should have been predictable (it wasn’t good).

Religion is not a pre-requisite for self-esteem and accomplishment, but religion, particularly Christianity, does provide some pretty useful things that aid children in building self-esteem. Christianity has forgiveness of sins, which helps absolve guilt and leads to self-acceptance (guilt and shame are highly corrosive to self-esteem). Religion can give a person a clear sense of purpose and place in the universe as well as can provide a community that they will feel a sense of belonging within. Many churches offer service opportunities that can build that sense of accomplishment as well. I don’t believe that religion is essential IF there are sufficient other activities or organizations in the child’s life that can fill the same niches. However, religion is such an obvious choice that can kill multiple birds with one stone that it’s removal from public life should not be ignored as a contributing factor to nation-wide declines in self-esteem.

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Maybe previous generations didn't have the luxury of rebellion due to the economic realities of the times.

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... or the nidus of a bungled 12-yr war, with poorly defined objectives, terrible leadership, in the face of involuntary service forced through the draft. The dynamic for young people was very different than that of WWII.