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1
Posted on 7/8/26 at 10:53 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
It's a very sloppy, poorly expressed contention,
It definitely didn't age well, but I believe it's a product of its time.
quote:I completely agree. My interpretation of the paragraph -- and interpreting it in conversation with the larger text -- is that the daily, routine objectification of women (or people in general) creates or exacerbates a type of existential crisis. If someone's character, intellect, or personality is valuable only insofar as it enhances what another person already desires, does the person actually matter? Or is the person simply a vehicle for satisfying someone else's desires?
That does not mean a woman is not physically attracted to a nice looking man though, nor does it mean a man is not attracted to intelligence, personality, or professional capacity in a woman. To the contrary, most men seek fairly comparable intelligence in a partner, e.g., someone who will not be out of place in his social circles, or in conversation. Certainly Becker would not contend otherwise were he questioned about it, but the piece you cite does a pathetic job in teasing out the argument.
More importantly (and I think this is really what Becker was getting at), how can someone derive meaning from a society that consistently measures human worth by characteristics that are secondary to character?
Posted on 7/8/26 at 10:58 am to 4cubbies
quote:
If someone's character, intellect, or personality is valuable only insofar as it enhances what another person already desires, does the person actually matter?
What human interactions are not like this?
Again, I stand by my very first post on this topic. This guy seems to be just a nihilist who correctly diagnoses the problem of the human condition, but instead of embracing the solution, he just wallows in the nihilism.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 10:59 am to 4cubbies
quote:
More importantly (and I think this is really what Becker was getting at), how can someone derive meaning from a society that consistently measures human worth by characteristics that are secondary to character?
They can't.
Meaning may only be derived by finding identity in Christ, because He's the only thing that transcends these human limitations.
Again, I stand by my very first post.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 11:05 am to kingbob
I love your responses. You're such an unassuming poster.. just a regular fella who lives in Sorrento but then you drop some really thoughtful and insightful post out of nowhere. And if I recall correctly, you're relatively young, too. I'm glad you're here. 
quote:Something Catholicism does really well is honoring the inherent value of every human. Universal human dignity is a pillar of the faith because it teaches that every person possesses inherent worth independent of what they can produce or offer others
Religion is not a pre-requisite for self-esteem and accomplishment, but religion, particularly Christianity, does provide some pretty useful things that aid children in building self-esteem.
quote:True. Religion helps people form connections, build community, acts as a vehicle for mutual aid, etc. etc.
However, religion is such an obvious choice that can kill multiple birds with one stone that it’s removal from public life should not be ignored as a contributing factor to nation-wide declines in self-esteem
Posted on 7/8/26 at 11:19 am to UtahCajun
quote:I wonder if technological advances finally provided men with the capacity to ponder these things? People no longer had to devote most of their time and abilities to survival and the survival of their families so they could devote more attention to questions of identity, purpose, and meaning?
But these types of conflicts have happened throughout time. We just went through the longest period, in our history, of that type of conflict. It doesn't seem that those who went to Iraq and A-stan felt even close to the same.
There has to be other reasons.
Maybe prosperity caused the crisis.
quote:Neoliberalism isn't "personal responsibility," though. Neoliberalism is more about organizing society around markets, privatization, competition, and individual responsibility than simply believing people should be personally responsible. I also have to push back on your claim that traditional institutions were young. We're talking about the military. Marriage. Religion.
Individual responsibily was baked into tUSA from its founding. I would argue that these "traditional institutions", of which were mostly less than 60 years old, had little to do with anything as well as the conflict in Vietnam. I mean, we still see the same today.
quote:Fair correction.
That was not the traditional trajectory for the masses.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 11:27 am to 4cubbies
quote:How can one derive meaning from a trophy case? The derivative is not from the trophies, but from the underlying representative achievement.
how can someone derive meaning from a society that consistently measures human worth by characteristics that are secondary to character?
Posted on 7/8/26 at 11:30 am to 4cubbies
It's gotta suck growing up to know most member of congress want you replaced because they can't count on your vote.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:00 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
2. Instead of internalizing that behavior as a statement on a lack of worth on your part, if you understand it and respond appropriately, it doesn't have to be a bring-down-bummer.
I think you just changed my life.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:05 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Again, I stand by my very first post on this topic. This guy seems to be just a nihilist who correctly diagnoses the problem of the human condition, but instead of embracing the solution, he just wallows in the nihilism.
I think he was grappling with a lot internally in the face of certain death.
quote:
but instead of embracing the solution
Is the solution just a shrug and accepting our limitations? The "it is what it is" approach to life?
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:08 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
Meaning may only be derived by finding identity in Christ, because He's the only thing that transcends these human limitations.
I don't know if I agree with this. It's hard to believe or accept that everyone who has never encountered Christianity necessarily lives a life devoid of meaning.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:09 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Maybe prosperity caused the crisis.
Ooooo...yes. It sounds like you are scratching the surface of the Strauss-Howe theory. I would buy into that.
quote:
We're talking about the military. Marriage. Religion.
My bad. Carry on. Was erroneously thinking you were speaking of governmental institutions.
This post was edited on 7/8/26 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:13 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
How can one derive meaning from a trophy case? The derivative is not from the trophies, but from the underlying representative achievement.
The trophy analogy assumes society is rewarding genuine achievement. Becker's concern (and mine) is what happens when society rewards things that have little relationship to character in the first place. What do beauty, wealth, youth, sexual desirability, or status actually tell us about a person's character?
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:14 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
There's no substantive difference between "modern feminism" and 1st and 2nd wave feminism.
Social media has made modern feminism worse
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:17 pm to UtahCajun
quote:
It sounds like you are scratching the surface of the Strauss-Howe theory.
My next rabbit hole.
Took you long enough to join the thread btw.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:28 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
It all seems very cyclical, at least starting with the Boomer generation. Maybe previous generations didn't have the luxury of rebellion due to the economic realities of the times.
History repeats itself where human behavior is involved. It was far more than likely cyclical prior to Boomers, but without the ability of television that range of influence was likely limited to being strictly local (see also: styles of cooking, regional accents, etc).
Due to that, I don't think economics had nearly as much to do with it as the size of the group and its sudden ability to connect beyond locality (remember, both the TV and the telephone took off in popularity around this time). Where those two blend is in the explosive growth of advertising and music geared toward that group in a manner and with an intensity never seen before.
quote:
Maybe television and media amplified that shift, like you suggested. Maybe they didn't create the crisis so much as expose it and accelerate it.
That's how I see it. With a group that large it was inevitable that they would change societal behaviors to some extent, but I believe the change in tech allowed it to reach beyond just the locality limitation of all previous generations. This also would have allowed it to last far longer, pushing back traditional societal influences which may have otherwise tempered the change (we see this far more strongly in today's world with things like pro-trans and even pro-pedo groups -using them as examples because of their being extremes in traditional societal behavioral norms- finding strength in being able to create community online).
quote:
Every generation seems to inherit its own crisis, and each crisis reshapes what people perceive as meaningful, attainable, or worth sacrificing for. I do think American culture exacerbates this by increasingly encouraging people to seek identity through consumption, status, and image.
I think that's a step in the right direction, but I think it goes further than that. I think one of the great failings we have is that we've adopted a mindset of the "noble victim" (the belief that being a "victim" of something makes one noble due to surviving it) and thus so many rush to seek out their own "victim" status so they can be celebrated.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:47 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Took you long enough to join the thread btw.
I read through it. This topic is way out of my wheelhouse. I found it very interesting.
Besides, I was having too much fun making fun of SDVtiger, BoarEd, et al
Posted on 7/8/26 at 12:51 pm to 4cubbies
quote:That which is immutable literally is what it is. How we control what we can control is determinative.
What do beauty, wealth, youth, sexual desirability, or status actually tell us about a person's character?
Posted on 7/8/26 at 3:00 pm to 4cubbies
quote:
Is the solution just a shrug and accepting our limitations?
Come on, now.
I've given the solution at least 5 times now.
Posted on 7/8/26 at 3:06 pm to Revelator
quote:
Social media has made modern feminism worse
It's made everything worse, no doubt.
But feminism has always opposed the family, always opposed Christianity, and since the very end of 1st wave (or the very beginning of 2nd wave, depending upon who you ask), has posited that humans are interchangeable widgets whose sex confers no inherent behavioral traits and that gender is completely made up.
Simone de Beauvoir wrote about that—which is not only the foundation for exhorting women to act like men, but also the foundation for trans ideology—a full year before John Money picked up the idea and ran with it.
This idea that feminism used to just mean that women wanted to vote, but since the 70s or 80s or 90s (again, depending on who you ask) its become irrationally radical is a myth.
It's always been that way.
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