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re: Is there even a definition of "conservative" anymore? When did you start promoting it?
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:42 pm to AUCom96
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:42 pm to AUCom96
quote:
I'm not responsible for your snarky moving goalposts.
Yeah, I don't get the arrogance here. The thread should be titled:
"Attempt to justify your definition of conservatism to me so I can disagree with you".
1
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:43 pm to SlowFlowPro
The real secret is that most people who consider themselves "conservative" or "liberal" have exceedingly few principled political views. They're simply cheerleaders for Republicans and Democrats in power.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:45 pm to the808bass
quote:
And libertarian social ideals are anti-conservative.
somewhat. not all. And in someways a true small government constutional conservative has to realize the best course of action is to promote the nuclear family(#1 issue in america today), education and other traditional conservative views on family while honoring the libertarian ideas of freedoms so long as they do not interfere with personal property rights.
true libertarians are mostly loons that live in a world of theory. Just as many conservatives have become right wing statist. and liberals....well they are just statist with no sociatal appeal and a desire to tear down every western tradition.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:46 pm to Pecker
quote:
This works great if you have a moral nation. Liberty is of course ideal, but cannot be societally beneficial apart from morality. In fact, the greater the freedom within an immoral nation, the more precipitous its decline into disorder.
I agree. But what constitutes 'a moral nation'? Morality exists with or without religion. In the case of America's only anarchy (pioneers going west) people did not commit random murders as portrayed in movies. Primarily because the pioneers were Christians.
But Muslim nations are very religious and they put bombs on babies.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:47 pm to Zach
quote:
But real world is should/would fallacy in argumentation theory. IE, all of the examples of consequences for drug use (starvation, no rehab, kill robbers) would never be passed into law. Therefore, they would never have the effect of stopping the consequences of bad decisions.
But the libertarian idea is correct absent the political/social probabilities.
We know this from history. Drugs used to be legal. When people abused them they died in the gutter. Parents walking by the next morning with children pointed it out 'See there? That's what will become of you if you become a dope fiend.'
100%
quote:
Conservatism : Don’t frick with people’s lives and don’t frick with people’s businesses. Small government / pro-Constitution
that would be more in line with libertarian than conservative. Atleast what many like bass want to consider conservative.
But 100% where i am. But i was called a liberal yesterday because i didnt support the death penalty because it cost more and I dont trust the government to do it right.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:48 pm to the808bass
quote:
And libertarian social ideals are anti-conservative.
I disagree. Social ideals literally should have no place in government. People should be free to be whom they choose to be.
Hanging on to terrible policy isn't going to advance conservativism.
Conservative ideals should always result in more liberty.
This post was edited on 5/12/21 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:50 pm to the808bass
quote:
Over time, conservatism has become defined as “small government” and “lower taxes.” That’s not really what defines conservatism.
but it's been the label of the GOP/conservatism since the post-WW2 era onward
at a certain point, that becomes conservatism and what you're describing is something completely different. that's exactly what i'm arguing
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:51 pm to Cromulent
quote:
You surely upvote yourself
i give negative fricks about up/down votes
quote:
And you want everyone else’s opinion but don’t give your own?
i've given my opinion about how Trumpism isn't "conservatism" and that Trumpkins are being postmodern and deconstructing the words
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:52 pm to Pecker
quote:
This works great if you have a moral nation. Liberty is of course ideal, but cannot be societally beneficial apart from morality. In fact, the greater the freedom within an immoral nation, the more precipitous its decline into disorder. The state will then rely on tyranny to restore order.
so the argument is to use tyranny to ensure there isn't enough freedom (or to enforce morality) to avoid tyranny?
This post was edited on 5/12/21 at 12:53 pm
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:52 pm to how333
quote:simpleton logic
Ronald Reagan = Donald Trump = Conservatism
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:53 pm to bricksandstones
quote:
I would say that I started to truly define my views as conservative around 2008 when I started listening to Ron Paul. I was in high school at the time, but listening to him speak about disentangling ourselves from pointless and costly wars, getting our fiscal policy and spending under control, and reigning in entitlement spending and federal spending generally, helped me to discern what part of the "conservative platform" I actually cared about. I always viewed the evangelical part of the GOP platform as a lost cause. Was against gay marriage at the time, but not passionately so.
Same
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:54 pm to Flats
quote:
"Attempt to justify your definition of conservatism to me so I can disagree with you".
i've cited historical examples throughout this thread to show that "Trumpism" hasn't been seen as "conservative" for at least 60 years
as opposed to people saying Trump was just like Goldwater...but he wasn't because times are different and everything is seen differently, but within that paradigm where things are totally different, they're exactly the same
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:57 pm to lsu777
quote:
But 100% where i am. But i was called a liberal yesterday because i didnt support the death penalty because it cost more and I dont trust the government to do it right.
Because you are a weak Liberal.
I am still waiting on your weak arse to prove you are "right" and not "left" on that other thread.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:58 pm to Zach
quote:I agree that morality can exist apart from religion, but it's much more difficult to achieve a shared morality apart from religion. Of course, not all religions are created equal.
I agree. But what constitutes 'a moral nation'? Morality exists with or without religion. In the case of America's only anarchy (pioneers going west) people did not commit random murders as portrayed in movies. Primarily because the pioneers were Christians.
But Muslim nations are very religious and they put bombs on babies.
I think libertarian economic policies ultimately fail societally because liberty for its own sake comes with social ramifications, unless you immediately start making concessions with respect to free trade and free movement of people.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:58 pm to SlowFlowPro
Trump is more of a pragmatist than an ideological conservative. He's a problem solver and most of our current problems these days that government can effect were created by demprogs and left-liberal policies.
Marxism is a cult.
Marxism is a cult.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:59 pm to 93and99
quote:
I am still waiting on your weak arse to prove you are "right" and not "left" on that other thread.
kind of like supporting the police in our lives...until they encroach into Trump's life? like that?
Posted on 5/12/21 at 12:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i've cited historical examples throughout this thread to show that "Trumpism" hasn't been seen as "conservative" for at least 60 year
Conservative has been a shifting definition since the days of Calvin Coolidge. There was a time it didn't mean perpetual "defense spending" and war either.
Who gives a crap? Call it "Trumpism" if you want. It's just a tiresome snarky line of argument that ignores the reason the party has shifted from Bush.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 1:00 pm to Auburn1968
quote:
Trump is more of a pragmatist than an ideological conservative.
then he's not a conservative by definition
quote:
most of our current problems these days that government can effect were created by demprogs and left-liberal policies.
a great example of a pragmatic, anti-liberal set of monetary policies
This post was edited on 5/12/21 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 5/12/21 at 1:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
as opposed to people saying Trump was just like Goldwater...but he wasn't because times are different and everything is seen differently, but within that paradigm where things are totally different, they're exactly the same
The biggest difference was, Goldwater didn't get elected.
Second biggest would be the starting baselines, but you have to go back to the biggest because we don't know what Goldwater would have actually BEEN ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH with regard to his starting baseline.
Posted on 5/12/21 at 1:01 pm to AUCom96
quote:
Who gives a crap? Call it "Trumpism" if you want. It's just a tiresome snarky line of argument that ignores the reason the party has shifted from Bush.
the label is valuable, as seen by people pretending like the "real conservative" badge truly matters in this very thread
if it didn't matter, they wouldn't warp language so much to fit Trump into the label
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