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re: Is it time for MAGA to admit that neoconservatism IS America First?
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:40 am to Ingeniero
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:40 am to Ingeniero
There is a wide gap between isolationism and neocon ideology being right all along.
I agree that we are the world's superpower in large part because we have the ability to exert our force everywhere. "With great power comes great responsibility" is the deal. An isolationist foreign policy would allow China or somebody else to fill the power vacuum.
However, that doesn't mean we should exert our force everywhere. Neoconservatism evolved from former leftists for a reason. Their idealogical framework is still destruction for "the greater good." Our track record of regime change and nation building isn't good enough to completely justify that.
I agree that we are the world's superpower in large part because we have the ability to exert our force everywhere. "With great power comes great responsibility" is the deal. An isolationist foreign policy would allow China or somebody else to fill the power vacuum.
However, that doesn't mean we should exert our force everywhere. Neoconservatism evolved from former leftists for a reason. Their idealogical framework is still destruction for "the greater good." Our track record of regime change and nation building isn't good enough to completely justify that.
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Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:41 am to Cuz413
quote:
I know you guys were right about Iraq, and I know you guys were right about Iran, but this Turkey thing is a real threat unlike any we've ever faced.
lol spot on.
Neoconservatism destroys everything.
And right now it’s destroying MAGA.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:41 am to rrboy
quote:
In Ukraine, we were just giving them money and nobody knows where the money was going.
There was some conspiracy money laundering pushback on the Ukraine situation, but there was much more, "When are you sending YOUR kid over there to fight," "Biden is trying to start WWIII for profit" nonsense.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:42 am to LuckyTiger
quote:
Neoconservatism
Without looking it up, can you define that word?
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:43 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
The fact that they can't see this I think is straight up an IQ thing. They can't process through A to B to C to D. They can only get a straight, one transition implication. A to B or A to C.
Some of the reason is many folks aren't interested enough to look deeper into politics. It takes a person a while to begin wrapping their heads around it and seek information from multiple sources.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:45 am to dgnx6
quote:
And Trump was never an isolationist. Another lie you folks keep trying to push.
This is both true and false.
He's never been an isolationist and I told the window lickers here when he was campaigning that he hadn't magically become one.
But he did ACT like he was going to be one during the campaign. That's just being honest. He told the idiots exactly what they wanted to hear and they believed it even though there was no reason for them to.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:46 am to lake chuck fan
quote:
Some of the reason is many folks aren't interested enough to look deeper into politics.
I'm not talking about John and Jane Q. Public, I'm talking about the cult members on this board.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:47 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Lots of people who took the MAGA/AF talking point position on Ukraine are feeling like this right now:
bullshite
Different situations require different solutions.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:50 am to Ingeniero
quote:
admit that neocons' ideology has been right all along
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:55 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
wackatimesthree
Posted on 3/25/26 at 9:58 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
This is both true and false.
He's never been an isolationist and I told the window lickers here when he was campaigning that he hadn't magically become one.
But he did ACT like he was going to be one during the campaign. That's just being honest. He told the idiots exactly what they wanted to hear and they believed it even though there was no reason for them to.
Agreed.
Also, "GOPe" had been used a pejorative here for years to describe and interventionist and warmongering wing of the party. Hell, I dug up posts about how Haley, Rubio, Graham, etc. couldn't be allowed to gain power because they would get us into unnecessary wars. Those same types are now influential in Trump's second term. I think Trump has always leaned hawkish, but his base absolutely hasn't. Of course, we'll never get an honest answer on that because self described MAGA voters form their opinions based on what Trump is doing at the time:
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:05 am to Midtiger farm
quote:
Also can you admit not every US intervention or the way the intervention was orchestrated is not good?
I don’t think the OP is defending Trump if the OP is championing American hegemony and criticizing isolationists (you also don’t have to be a full-on hawk to criticize isolationism… there are ways to influence geopolitics without direct military engagement). The transatlantic alliance has taken some bruises under this admin. Reading between the lines, it doesn’t sound like OP is too keen on that.
I think the OP is just trying to use MAGA’s goal post shifting in this moment to criticize the isolationist wing of the movement & justify his own position.
You’re right about one thing though… the fact that Trump’s handling of Iran has been a clusterfrick going back 10 years doesn’t really have anything to do with isolationism vs interventionism as much as it does failed strategy.
In retrospect, it has plainly just been a series of counterproductive choices that have likely pushed Iran further and further toward justifying a nuclear deterrent.
This post was edited on 3/25/26 at 10:10 am
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:07 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
Let's do the math.
That doesn't include the wars that we've fought on their behalf. Most of our excursions in the Middle East benefit Israel more than the U.S.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:11 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
This is what I keep trying to get the simple here to understand. They think they'd like the world we live in without American hegemony and interventionism.
I think the broader issue is that in the modern world, isolationism is neither practical or realistic foreign policy.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:13 am to Tantal
quote:
That doesn't include the wars that we've fought on their behalf. Most of our excursions in the Middle East benefit Israel more than the U.S.
Neither Kuwait nor Afghanistan had anything to do with Israel.
Also, saddam/iraq were enemies of Iran, and taking him out would empower Iran. By several accounts, the Israelis were against us going into Iraq.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:15 am to Ingeniero
So the two options are neoconservativism and isolationism?
Gtfo with that nonsense. It’s stupid enough that it would be a waste of time to argue with you.
Gtfo with that nonsense. It’s stupid enough that it would be a waste of time to argue with you.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:17 am to Tantal
quote:
A lot cheaper since I wouldn't be paying taxes to Israel.
The money that goes to Israel is a fractional extension of our military budget.
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:17 am to dgnx6
quote:
Can't build a wall because it costs too much, but we can send even more money to a non ally. It is pretty simple concept.
How about “can't build a wall because it costs too much while also spending more than any other president in history but with no real wall while fighting other people’s wars”
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:22 am to Earnest_P
quote:
So the two options are neoconservativism and isolationism?
Nowhere in my post did I say that. What I did say is that neocons have been vindicated in their way of thinking. Peace through strength and exerting force throughout the world is what makes America a superpower. I think Trump would agree with that. You're welcome to argue that actually spreading democracy through military strength isn't neoconservatism, but at that point you're just saying "neocon but make it MAGA"
Posted on 3/25/26 at 10:26 am to Ingeniero
quote:
Ingeniero
quote:
Also, "GOPe" had been used a pejorative here for years to describe and interventionist and warmongering wing of the party. Hell, I dug up posts about how Haley, Rubio, Graham, etc. couldn't be allowed to gain power because they would get us into unnecessary wars. Those same types are now influential in Trump's second term. I think Trump has always leaned hawkish, but his base absolutely hasn't. Of course, we'll never get an honest answer on that because self described MAGA voters form their opinions based on what Trump is doing at the time
The past couple months have been so astonishing to me regarding the level of about face that I think many “MAGA posters” read your op and didn’t realize that you were praising neoconservatism and shitting on “MAGA posters” at the same time.
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