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re: If someone tells you they’re a Libertarian
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:50 pm to BlackPawnMartyr
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:50 pm to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
they just dont believe in the governments ability to force their views on other people.
Of course they do; they want laws. It's probably more accurate to say they want fewer views forced on other people.
0
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:52 pm to abellsujr
quote:
People need to learn that you can be religious and still support free will at the same time.
Do you think people don't know this now?
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:53 pm to BABAR
quote:
I believe this change of meaning started with Bush 1 selling out to the Religious Right.
The Clintons didn't sell out to the religious?
You should hear crooked Hillary preach at southern black churches. Against gay marriages. Pro wall.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:53 pm to hawkeye007
quote:
when will libertarians realize that their party/ideology is not conservative
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:54 pm to Flats
quote:Some on the far right don’t no.
Do you think people don't know this now?
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:54 pm to Flats
A lot of evangelicals don’t, and evangelicals make up a healthy percentage of the GOP. They seem to legislate by the idea that if God says it’s sinful (drugs, gambling, prostitution, alcohol, etc) then no one should be allowed to do it. That evangelical nanny state wing of the GOP is nearly 100% to blame for its image problems with young voters.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:56 pm to kingbob
quote:
A lot of evangelicals don’t, and evangelicals make up a healthy percentage of the GOP. They seem to legislate by the idea that if God says it’s sinful (drugs, gambling, prostitution, alcohol, etc) then no one should be allowed to do it.
So you've seen them, for example, push for cheating on your wife to be illegal? Or lying?
We all, every one of us, want some values legislated. We just disagree on which ones.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:56 pm to Zach
quote:well I wasn't going to spend 30 minutes explaining the nuances of libertarianism on a Tuesday afternoon.
That's an oversimplification.
quote:Then what would a true libertarian say to that question? I never claimed to be one, but I would say that the government shouldn't provide healthcare to those people.
If you ask a person who self professes to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative this question:
'Do you think govt should provide basic care for the poor and indigent?'
They will say 'yes.'
That's not fiscally conservative and it is not libertarian.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 3:00 pm
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:58 pm to Caplewood
they dont claim to be
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:58 pm to chryso
chryso
I agree with this! Although, perhaps not socially liberal but socially libertarian and definitely in favor of fiscal conservatism...which neither major party does.
quote:
I consider myself as libertarian leaning. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. (Neither party seems to be fiscally conservative any longer.)
I agree with this! Although, perhaps not socially liberal but socially libertarian and definitely in favor of fiscal conservatism...which neither major party does.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 2:59 pm to Turbeauxdog
quote:
Claiming that if one were to assume people are ignorant is itself ignorant, displays an ignorance of the reality that most people in the world are ignorant.
I have come around to this. I think I was idealistic in thinking that most people were not stupid or fearful. I wanted to think the best of others. But after this scamdemic thing, I now know that at least 80% are willfully ignorant and willfully fearful and dependent on letting others think for them. I was more naive than I ever thought I could possibly be.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:00 pm to Bayou_Tiger_225
quote:
If you ask a person who self professes to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative this question: 'Do you think govt should provide basic care for the poor and indigent?' They will say 'yes.' That's not fiscally conservative and it is not libertarian. Then what would a true libertarian say to that question?
Well, hell, that's the easiest question I could have wished for as I sign off for the day.
A true libertarian would say 'NO.'
'Well, Mr. libertarian then people would just die.'
Me: 'Yes.'
See you guys tomorrow.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:01 pm to Flats
quote:
push for cheating on your wife to be illegal
Look up a lot of states “bigamy”, “sodomy”, and “crimes against nature” statutes. You’ll find that although it’s not enforced, extra-marital affairs often are illegal.
Lying, in many contexts, is illegal in all states.
This post was edited on 5/26/20 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:04 pm to Flats
Yeah, and wanting specific values for yourself or your children is fine. But expecting that everyone is going to follow those values or should follow those values, I think that’s where the divide lies.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:05 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
“No one may threaten or commit violence (‘aggress’) against another man’s person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory.” Murray Rothbard.
If that's the case why are so many libertarians opposed to the death penalty for heinous crimes?
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:06 pm to kingbob
quote:
Look up a lot of states “bigamy”, “sodomy”, and “crimes against nature” statutes. You’ll find that although it’s not enforced,
Who is trying to get it enforced? Nobody. Christianity says that lying is a sin, misusing God's name is a sin, etc etc etc. They're not legislated. Nobody's trying to get them legislated. The left has their own values they love to legislate as well. I rarely see libertarians complain about those, but that's another issue.
You want some values legislated by morality. So does everybody else unless they're anarchists. You may want fewer than a typical Christian, and I'd fall into that camp as well. But it's simply not accurate to way they want sin outlawed.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:08 pm to Jeb Busch Lite
A number of people who have identified themselves to me as being a libertarian eventually out themselves as being an entirely different political breed.
I'm not a self-identified libertarian but I do find merit in some of their positions. What I don't always find is consistency.
I'm not a self-identified libertarian but I do find merit in some of their positions. What I don't always find is consistency.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:08 pm to kingbob
quote:
He doesn’t fit conveniently into any political party or consistent philosophy.
The worst possible combination of Bill Clinton and GWB jr.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:09 pm to troyt37
Two reasons:
1. Our appeals process makes death penalty cases crazy expensive. It’s cheaper to just sentence them to life without parole.
2. Some libertarians have a major philosophical issue with permitting the government to have authority to take the life of a citizen who could be innocent.
Personally, I have no philosophical hangups over the death penalty, but I definitely understand the fiscal angle. Rather than abolish the penalty, however, I would seek reforms that balance the issues of reducing costs with preserving the rights of the accused.
1. Our appeals process makes death penalty cases crazy expensive. It’s cheaper to just sentence them to life without parole.
2. Some libertarians have a major philosophical issue with permitting the government to have authority to take the life of a citizen who could be innocent.
Personally, I have no philosophical hangups over the death penalty, but I definitely understand the fiscal angle. Rather than abolish the penalty, however, I would seek reforms that balance the issues of reducing costs with preserving the rights of the accused.
Posted on 5/26/20 at 3:11 pm to abellsujr
quote:
Yeah, and wanting specific values for yourself or your children is fine. But expecting that everyone is going to follow those values or should follow those values, I think that’s where the divide lies.
You keep trying to paint yourself as fundamentally different than them and it's simply not true. Most Christians have their children attend church; do they try to force yours to attend as well? Do they knock on your door on Sunday morning and tell you you're a bad parent and try to take your kids to church?
Laws enforce values and are typically (judicial fiat aside) reflective of the moral norms of society. If you want laws, you want certain moral/ethical values legislated. Do you want laws?
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