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re: I’d like to be armed with facts against Bernie.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:50 am to Fun Bunch
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:50 am to Fun Bunch
My go to with the min wage hike is much easier to comprehend.
Bottom rung gets bumped up to $15 an hour.
But wait! What about the dude who was making $15 an hour? Guess he gets a raise as well. Guess we will give him
$20.
But wait! What about the guy who made $20 before? He isn’t gonna accept making the same as the guy below him. He wants a raise. So he gets it and makes $25 an hr now.
BUT WAIT! now the guy who made $25 an hour is pissed bc he has all of this extra responsibility and is making the same as the guy below him. Guess that means he gets a raise as well....
So. Now that every rung of the ladder has gotten a raise, that means I’m paying an assload more for the same labor. Guess that means I’ll fire a couple of the low rung guys and raise my prices of my goods and services so I, the owner, can continue to make the profits I was before this mandatory wage hike.
What has changed? Now homeboy making min wage is out of a job or working less hours and the price of nearly every food and service he uses has gone up, making his overall purchasing power less than it was before.....
Guess that means we should raise the min wage again.
Bottom rung gets bumped up to $15 an hour.
But wait! What about the dude who was making $15 an hour? Guess he gets a raise as well. Guess we will give him
$20.
But wait! What about the guy who made $20 before? He isn’t gonna accept making the same as the guy below him. He wants a raise. So he gets it and makes $25 an hr now.
BUT WAIT! now the guy who made $25 an hour is pissed bc he has all of this extra responsibility and is making the same as the guy below him. Guess that means he gets a raise as well....
So. Now that every rung of the ladder has gotten a raise, that means I’m paying an assload more for the same labor. Guess that means I’ll fire a couple of the low rung guys and raise my prices of my goods and services so I, the owner, can continue to make the profits I was before this mandatory wage hike.
What has changed? Now homeboy making min wage is out of a job or working less hours and the price of nearly every food and service he uses has gone up, making his overall purchasing power less than it was before.....
Guess that means we should raise the min wage again.
1
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:52 am to Fun Bunch
The Bern’s Medicare For All tax plan options. Still low on details IMO. No explanation on how to pay for all the other free stuff.
The Bern’s Lies
The Bern’s Lies
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:53 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
Specifics would be helpful not generalities like Socialism Bad (although obviously I agree).
Kind of hard to do when Bernie’s platform consists entirely of generalities like “free everything.” There’s also the fact that he wanted to institute Soviet Union breadlines in the United States as recently as the late Reagan administration and wanted to nationalize all US private industry. But the mouth breathers here are too wrapped up in muh establishment fears to be alarmed that an undisguised socialist demagogue could be president. Of course if he is president he won’t get much done because his proposals are utterly preposterous and even a democratic congress wouldn’t work with him. But Bernie in office is the worst case scenario
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:53 am to beerJeep
quote:
How do you propose getting more doctors when you take away the monetary incentive to become a doctor?
if you think doctors choose to be doctors because they care about your well being.
Meh. The idea that doctors that are only in it for the pay as you seem to insinuate is pretty asinine. Someone hard working and intelligent enough to to be a doc could find easier ways to make more money with less liability, time invested, and stress. Docs choose to be docs for varieties of reasons. Pay is good no doubt, but its more of lifestyle, position, knowledge, and general feeling of positive impact. Your individual well being may not be the top of the list, but neither is pay.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 11:56 am to AMS
quote:
The idea that doctors that are only in it for the pay as you seem to insinuate is pretty asinine.
Oh I don’t think for a second it’s the only reason. But it absolutely is a major reason.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 12:02 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:Housing is a right, i.e. take over if housing market
I’m asking for Bernie specific facts ie what HE is actually proposing specifically.
Take over of healthcare
Take over of energy sector and initiation of green new deal and reported want to jail executives of energy companies
Takeover of financial institutions
Opening all welfare systems to non-citizens
That is a pretty good start.
And he has not been able to articulate how he would pay for all of that.
You can find more of his positions that are sugarcoated on his website.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 12:10 pm to CelticDog
At least in Arkansas, they had rural scholarships which worked much the same way. They would pay for your med school in exchange for working in the community for a certain number of years. Problem is they are all primary care, family medicine type positions. A lot of grads don’t want to go into primary care. Those that go into internal medicine subspecialize into GI, plum and cardiology. Plus, most people don’t want to live in those communities and raise a family there.
Other alternative is the military. They have a year for year program if one qualifies physically and academically. The big issue here is the military dictates, to a big degree, what specialty you can go in. You may love orthopedic surgery and have excellent grades and board scores, but, they have a grading system that awards points for time in service, academy grads etc. This slants against people who come from civilian medical schools and at times relegate them to flight medicine which is a one year residency followed by serving in a clinic. People run the risk of serving there time in a specialty they hate and then having to go back and try to qualify a residency afterwards.
I guess what I’m saying is there are ways to pay for medical school, but each takes away potential career fields and dictate where you can work. Not ideal for everyone.
Other alternative is the military. They have a year for year program if one qualifies physically and academically. The big issue here is the military dictates, to a big degree, what specialty you can go in. You may love orthopedic surgery and have excellent grades and board scores, but, they have a grading system that awards points for time in service, academy grads etc. This slants against people who come from civilian medical schools and at times relegate them to flight medicine which is a one year residency followed by serving in a clinic. People run the risk of serving there time in a specialty they hate and then having to go back and try to qualify a residency afterwards.
I guess what I’m saying is there are ways to pay for medical school, but each takes away potential career fields and dictate where you can work. Not ideal for everyone.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 12:54 pm to Fun Bunch
Just some real numbers based off of “plans” he’s released in 2016 and this cycle.
Time
Tax Foundation
USA Today
First off, raising taxes 10+% on the lower middle class should be suicide. The 50+% tax on people making 29,000 is a miscalculation and people need to stop spreading it.
First, that the government would ever sniff 51% of taxes even on the wealthiest is pure idiocy. Raising taxes on people in any way shape or form should be frowned on but people should be ashamed for thinking they’re in any way entitled to more than half of somebody’s income.
Secondly, every tax plan Bernie has compared to his spending is just unobtainable. He could confiscate all the wealth in the country and tax the top 10% at 100% and he could run the country under his plan for a couple of years. That’s assuming the rich just leave their money here and continue making the same money without sending anything overseas.
He has said that he’ll pay for the healthcare of illegals. While I’m a compassionate man and don’t go with the board’s take on immigration always, you can’t import net takers to the system with no end date to make them givers. You can have open borders. You can have a social safety net for citizens. You flat out can’t have both.
On a side note all of the above, all of his main talking points are weaponized greed/envy/jealousy. He’s acted like wealth and money making is a 0 sum game and told people that fellow Americans are the cause of their plight, and I’m going to take their money for you. He’s made it OK to be envious of other people’s success and used it for race/gender/ class warfare.
One thing about Trump is that he does not attack Americans for their class or immutable qualities. He’ll attack democrats, media, etc., but he doesn’t attack somebody for being black, poor, gay, etc.
Lastly, a man who has never had a job outside of the public sector having 3 houses 5x the national average should be troubling for anybody. He has 3 houses, but has never given more than 3% of his income to charity on any of his tax returns.
Time
Tax Foundation
USA Today
First off, raising taxes 10+% on the lower middle class should be suicide. The 50+% tax on people making 29,000 is a miscalculation and people need to stop spreading it.
First, that the government would ever sniff 51% of taxes even on the wealthiest is pure idiocy. Raising taxes on people in any way shape or form should be frowned on but people should be ashamed for thinking they’re in any way entitled to more than half of somebody’s income.
Secondly, every tax plan Bernie has compared to his spending is just unobtainable. He could confiscate all the wealth in the country and tax the top 10% at 100% and he could run the country under his plan for a couple of years. That’s assuming the rich just leave their money here and continue making the same money without sending anything overseas.
He has said that he’ll pay for the healthcare of illegals. While I’m a compassionate man and don’t go with the board’s take on immigration always, you can’t import net takers to the system with no end date to make them givers. You can have open borders. You can have a social safety net for citizens. You flat out can’t have both.
On a side note all of the above, all of his main talking points are weaponized greed/envy/jealousy. He’s acted like wealth and money making is a 0 sum game and told people that fellow Americans are the cause of their plight, and I’m going to take their money for you. He’s made it OK to be envious of other people’s success and used it for race/gender/ class warfare.
One thing about Trump is that he does not attack Americans for their class or immutable qualities. He’ll attack democrats, media, etc., but he doesn’t attack somebody for being black, poor, gay, etc.
Lastly, a man who has never had a job outside of the public sector having 3 houses 5x the national average should be troubling for anybody. He has 3 houses, but has never given more than 3% of his income to charity on any of his tax returns.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 12:59 pm to 3nOut
quote:
Lastly, a man who has never had a job outside of the public sector having 3 houses 5x the national average should be troubling for anybody. He has 3 houses, but has never given more than 3% of his income to charity on any of his tax returns.
His "camp" cost double what my house did. We are considered upper middle class too I believe.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:05 pm to Fun Bunch
I won’t try to argue the merits of ideology with anyone.
I just point to the facts on current state of affairs.
UE lowest in decades among all demographics
Crime, school shootings, terror attacks are way down
Economy booming
Dow record high
New trade deals
Immigration down
Isis defeated
Wages are up
Why fix what isn’t broke
I just point to the facts on current state of affairs.
UE lowest in decades among all demographics
Crime, school shootings, terror attacks are way down
Economy booming
Dow record high
New trade deals
Immigration down
Isis defeated
Wages are up
Why fix what isn’t broke
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:15 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Those immigrants make up a small number of the population — about 11 million
It's been at 11 million for at least a decade with millions crossing the border every year.
Yale University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology estimated that the illegal immigration population was much higher: an average 22.1 million for 2016.
LINK
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:21 pm to Veritas
Correct. Regardless of if we can even pay for his proposals (we cant), what he is selling is a system that is fundamentally opposed to autonomous people and will not only wreck our liberties and abilities to manage our lives as we see fit, it will also wreck the greatest economy the world knows.
I’m tired of hearing how expensive his proposals are. By that being the angle of attack people are thus legitimizing the actual proposals and give them strength. That’s a terrible approach.
I’m tired of hearing how expensive his proposals are. By that being the angle of attack people are thus legitimizing the actual proposals and give them strength. That’s a terrible approach.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:36 pm to beerJeep
quote:
My go to with the min wage hike
Econ 101 you cannot legislate value, minimum wage is a stupid concept for economic illiterates
This post was edited on 2/23/20 at 1:39 pm
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:45 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Hey idiot. frick off if you don’t have anything to contribute. This is intended to be a useful thread. Go elsewhere.
Lol lazy bum.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:52 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
So, again, this is just a fear mongering statement with no facts supporting it.
Here’s a guy who’s not even paying attention to what the candidate he’s supporting is proposing.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 1:57 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Furthermore, to suggest that providing undocumented immigrants with insurance would bankrupt the country is misleading.
This is actually true. The country is already effectively bankrupt.
But, a few points of order. There are far more than 11M illegals. It’s at least 20M and maybe closer to 30M.
Let’s assume a few things. Let’s assume that the average burden on the system per person is $12,000 (that’s Bernie’s number).
Let’s further assume that half of the illegals will be self supporting. IOW, they will contribute enough in taxes to make their health costs revenue neutral (bahaha haha haha).
Even with those assumptions, it would add $120B in expenses to the government ever year in today’s dollars.
The current Medicare budget is ~$600B. So just to pay for half the illegals would be an incredible increase in expenditures. And we’re already running a budget deficit.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 2:01 pm to the808bass
The entitlements will carry trillion dollars deficits alone by 2023. Even I think our Congress is smart enough to understand their livelihoods depend on not adding another.
This post was edited on 2/23/20 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 2/23/20 at 2:06 pm to Fun Bunch
These plans Bernie, Warren, etc are proposing costs in the 10s of trillions of dollars. In some cases just one plan (last I saw Warren's healthcare plan cost 52 trillion over 10 years).
You could strip all of the billionaire's wealth and not come close to covering one of their big agenda items.
This gives some numbers. Don't get caught up in them being pedantic about 8 months vs 9 months. Ask yourself how the rich are going to pay for everything. The answer is they aren't, the middle class will.
You could strip all of the billionaire's wealth and not come close to covering one of their big agenda items.
This gives some numbers. Don't get caught up in them being pedantic about 8 months vs 9 months. Ask yourself how the rich are going to pay for everything. The answer is they aren't, the middle class will.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 2:10 pm to wheelr
quote:
In some cases just one plan (last I saw Warren's healthcare plan cost 52 trillion over 10 years).
People don’t grasp how big these numbers are.
For 2019, the entire Federal budget was $4.4T.
So, by the early estimates, the Warren healthcare plan is more than doubling the Federal budget.
Posted on 2/23/20 at 2:15 pm to wheelr
quote:
These plans Bernie, Warren, etc are proposing costs in the 10s of trillions of dollars. In some cases just one plan (last I saw Warren's healthcare plan cost 52 trillion over 10 years).
You could strip all of the billionaire's wealth and not come close to covering one of their big agenda items
It needs to be repeated, we could confiscate the top 20 Americans of all their wealth and we wouldn’t or would barely get to 2 trillion of that 52 needed.
The numbers start dropping quickly after that.
And that’s money that doesn’t come back with next year’s income tax. It’s a one time confiscation
This post was edited on 2/23/20 at 2:17 pm
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