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re: How many of you will be upset if/when Ukraine thwarts Russia?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:30 pm to upgrayedd
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:30 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
I don't think this has as much to do with potential kinetic military action per se, but more to do with economic and cultural influence (with some military issues mixed in).
It's about land. Straight up. That's why Russia changed its demands to Ukraine at the beginning of the invasion once Ukraine agreed to Russia's demands re: NATO. How did Russia change the deal? Demanding the land connecting Crimea to Russia
0
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
How many of you will be upset if/when Ukraine thwarts Russia?
DNGAF
My issue is giving them money and the US getting involved.
America First.
Your rebuttal counselor
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:31 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's likely going to cost Americans hundreds of billions of dollars
You mean if we stayed out?
How so?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:32 pm to lsu777
quote:
yea im sure it had nothing to do with Yanukovych's refusal to sign free trade agreements with the EU adn Putins urging huh?
im sure it had nothing to do with Yanukovych's repealing the 2004 admendments huh
or it had nothing to do with him making ukraine a russian puppet state like Belarus currently is....right?
They're doing the same thing we're doing/have done, but it's ok because we're the "good guys"? I don't agree with either side, but you have to recognize that very basic reality.
quote:They're doing the exact same thing that Russia was doing - trying to gain the dominant influence on Ukraine. You have to at least acknowledge that Russia sees these things the same as we do only in the reciprocal.
ook the CIA pretty much can suck dick and god knows the FBI does, but not everythign is the US's fault.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:32 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
It used to not be on the border of Russia. There was a promise not to make it on the border of Russia. It was then on the border of Russia save for a few spots, one of them being Ukraine
well russia is the one that collapsed the ussr, have nobody to blame but themselves
if they were not aggressive then those countries would feel no need to be a part of russia
no promise was ever made
quote:
ussia doesn't want there to be a Russia/NATO border there as well.
why the frick would i care what some piece of shite dictator wants? frick russia and frick putin, not gonna bow down to his wishes
they could you know....stop being aggressive to its neighbors and driving them to nato....just a thought..
quote:
I don't think this has as much to do with potential kinetic military action per se, but more to do with economic and cultural influence (with some military issues mixed in).
oh here we fricking go....putin is the mans man huh and fighting to save the world from the influeces of the tranny brigade....dude GTFO with that stupid bullshite.
has nothing to do with culture. frick russia is so arse backwards, dumb and full of alcoholics...western culture would never take hold. not to mention the whole country is a 3rd world poverty stricken shithole.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:32 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:I'm pro-truth SFP.
And y'all wonder why people call you pro-Putin? You don't see why it comes off that way?
The truth is, if NATO did not exist, or if Ukraine-to-NATO BS narratives never happened, would there have been a Russia-Ukraine War? If you answer that honestly, you'll understand where I'm coming from.
As I've said, I'm no more pro-Putin than I am pro-rattlesnake. But if you walk up to a rattler, ignoring its perception of you as a threat, then you're going to get bitten. And I'll say you brought that on yourself.
Doesn't mean I love rattlesnakes.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:32 pm to NPComb
quote:
Your rebuttal counselor
Which scenario is better?
A. We spend $100B to thwart Russia to restore order and return the world to peaceful and trustworthy relations.
B. We permit Russia to disrupt the international community, which will cost US citizens $300B over 5 years.
Americans are spending money on this invasion one way or another
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:33 pm to Powerman
quote:
There are plenty of people who won't come out and say it but you can get the idea of what they're thinking
So you, SFP, and the rest of the Ukraine devotees are constantly wagging your finger at an imagined sentiment. Cool
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:33 pm to ApexTiger
quote:
You mean if we stayed out?
How so?
Just look at how this has increased petro pricing, wheat pricing, etc. worldwide. That's not going to end with a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine.
The entire international system is going to face costly blowback. The question is how much and for how long?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:34 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
It has far more to do with Russia's historical and current desire for cultural and economic hegemony over the Central/Eastern European slavs than the absurd pretext of fearing NATO.
They see their sphere of influence sprinting away from them, permanently. So they are moving to reclaim that territory, its resources, and the Russian populations of those areas for themselves.
At from that perspective, especially given the prevailing decadent cultural trends of the West, you have to understand where they're coming from.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:Too late. The idea that one cannot be against war i t he Ukraine without being “pro-Russian” supporter of
And to avoid a conflated gotcha
Putin is silly.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:35 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The truth is, if NATO did not exist, or if Ukraine-to-NATO BS narratives never happened, would there have been a Russia-Ukraine War?
Yes.
The talking point would likely be centered around Russia saving ethnic Russians from Ukrainian violence and/or fighting Nazis.
That was their gameplan in Crimea and Georgia. No reason to think it wouldn't be used again.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:36 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
It has far more to do with Russia's historical and current desire for cultural and economic hegemony over the Central/Eastern European slavs than the absurd pretext of fearing NATO.
They see their sphere of influence sprinting away from them, permanently. So they are moving to reclaim that territory, its resources, and the Russian populations of those areas for themselves.
thank you. this is all about Putin wanting to restore the russian empire pre-soviets. he has stated that many times.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:36 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
At from that perspective, especially given the prevailing decadent cultural trends of the West, you have to understand where they're coming from.
From the point that I know the reason for what they are doing, sure.
There is no legitimacy to it however. Russia has no entitlement whatsoever to dominate those regions in any form.
The critical point of my post was to say that Russia's "we're scared of NATO" line is such obvious bullshite. They want to control these areas. To that vein of thought, I would argue that the EU is more of Russia's true concern than NATO is.
"NATO is attacking us" is just how they are selling it at home because "we regret giving this land away and will take it back by force now so that it doesn't cozy up to Europe like the people who live there want to do" is a bad selling pitch. It comes with the added bonus of being able to blame everything on the United States.
This post was edited on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:37 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
especially given the prevailing decadent cultural trends of the West, you have to understand where they're coming from.
Russia has devolved into barely above 3rd world status because they won't adopt international norms and negotiate international agreements in good faith. That's not because of some EU/US plot. It's because Russia is assho.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:38 pm to Indefatigable
quote:The US lost < 150K in WWII Europe. Russia lost 27 Million.
It has far more to do with Russia's historical and current desire for cultural and economic hegemony over the Central/Eastern European slavs than the absurd pretext of fearing NATO.
Had their enemy been able to launch from Eastern Ukraine instead of central Poland, Russia would have fallen. That is their perspective. They don't give a rat's arse about a shared border with Norway.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:38 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
They're doing the same thing we're doing/have done, but it's ok because we're the "good guys"? I don't agree with either side, but you have to recognize that very basic reality.
certainly we have not been the good guys many times. but we didnt really have anything to do with the current admin in ukraine.
they arent doing the same thing we are doing. other than iraq we have never went in with kinetic military action to overthrow a government and sure as frick have never went essentially scorched earth destroying a country.
quote:
They're doing the exact same thing that Russia was doing - trying to gain the dominant influence on Ukraine. You have to at least acknowledge that Russia sees these things the same as we do only in the reciprocal.
russia is about taking the land and the resources and essentially genocide in ukraine, they want to end ukraine identity as they beleive it is the birthplace of russia and was rightfully russias to begin with.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:39 pm to lsu777
quote:Not that you should necessarily care what he thinks, but you need to recognize the fact that he has a say in the matter no matter how much you don't want him to. This is a pretty typical attitude of the US that gets us into useless conflicts all over the fricking globe.
why the frick would i care what some piece of shite dictator wants? frick russia and frick putin, not gonna bow down to his wishes
they could you know....stop being aggressive to its neighbors and driving them to nato....just a thought..
quote:
oh here we fricking go....putin is the mans man huh and fighting to save the world from the influeces of the tranny brigade....dude GTFO with that stupid bullshite.
has nothing to do with culture. frick russia is so arse backwards, dumb and full of alcoholics...western culture would never take hold. not to mention the whole country is a 3rd world poverty stricken shithole.
I think you need to calm down a little. It's obvious that your rage is clouding your ability to think rationally. Maybe stare at some sunflowers and calm down a little.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:39 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
To that vein, I would argue that the EU is more of Russia's true concern than NATO is.
The 2014 Euromaidan and this invasion have more to do with Ukraine’s integration into Europe more than anything else.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The talking point would likely be centered around Russia saving ethnic Russians from Ukrainian violence and/or fighting Nazis.
One man's revolutionary is another man's traitor.
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