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re: How many of you will be upset if/when Ukraine thwarts Russia?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm to Indefatigable
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I would argue that the EU is more of Russia's true concern than NATO is.
100%
Putin's primary flex in Ukraine while he controlled it was to have Yanukovych reject the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. NATO had nothing to do with it. Putin didn't want Ukraine to be part of a superior international community and make the EU a bigger trade partner/influence than Russia.
shite, Ukraine would have ended up with a higher standard of living than Russia. That would NOT be acceptable to Putin and his hardliners.
This post was edited on 10/3/22 at 12:41 pm
1
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
From the point that I know the reason for what they are doing, sure.
There is no legitimacy to it however. Russia has no entitlement whatsoever to dominate those regions in any form.
The critical point of my post was to say that Russia's "we're scared of NATO" line is such obvious bullshite. They want to control these areas. To that vein of thought, I would argue that the EU is more of Russia's true concern than NATO is.
"NATO is attacking us" is just how they are selling it at home because "we regret giving this land away and will take it back by force now so that it doesn't cozy up to Europe like the people who live there want to do" is a bad selling pitch. It comes with the added bonus of being able to blame everything on the United States.
thank you
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:40 pm to lsu777
quote:
certainly we have not been the good guys many times. but we didnt really have anything to do with the current admin in ukraine.
they arent doing the same thing we are doing. other than iraq we have never went in with kinetic military action to overthrow a government and sure as frick have never went essentially scorched earth destroying a country.
"I know we're not always the good guys, but we're obviously the good guys here". That's what we say at the outset of every military operation over the last 60 years.
quote:
russia is about taking the land and the resources and essentially genocide in ukraine, they want to end ukraine identity as they beleive it is the birthplace of russia and was rightfully russias to begin with.
I think that's a bit hyperbolic.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:41 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
That is their perspective.
We simply disagree there, then.
I do not believe that Russia is actually concerned about the prospect of NATO invading Russia across Ukraine. I believe their primary motivations are economic, political, and cultural, with the NATO line simply being an easy sell.
I believe that Russia's lack of throwing a shite-fit in 2004 supports this line of thinking. If it were really about ease of military access to St. Petersburg/Moscow, they would gone absolutely postal about Poland and the Baltics. But they didn't.
This post was edited on 10/3/22 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:42 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
One man's revolutionary is another man's traitor.
Yes and a lie is always a lie, even if some people believe it.
Putin doesn't believe this shite. He just gives 20 talking points and then has his disinfo warriors push the ones that stick the most, the hardest.
Hence, the N-triumverate:
NATO
Nazis
Nukes
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:43 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
I do not believe that Russia is actually concerned about the prospect of NATO invading Russia across Ukraine. I believe their primary motivations are economic, political, and cultural, with the NATO line simply being an easy sell.
100%
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:44 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Americans are spending money on this invasion one way or another
I don't see it that way. I think any money we spend is because we choose to.
Explain to me why If America let's Zelensky be OK with working out a solution with Putin, that costs us a dime?
The US has interjected itself into Ukraine. I can see no reason why we would need to be spending any money in Ukraine. We already saw the money Obama sent during the Burisma deal up and disappear.
The fact that no one can account for any of these funds that Congress has sent to Ukraine should alarm everyone. Biden has sent $15.8 Billion since he took office to Ukraine. Why?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:44 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The truth is, if NATO did not exist, or if Ukraine-to-NATO BS narratives never happened, would there have been a Russia-Ukraine War? If you answer that honestly, you'll understand where I'm coming from.
I could also say that if WWII never happened, we probably wouldn’t be in this situation either. It’s just another if my aunt had a dick she’d be my uncle scenario. Just hypotheticals, not reality.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:45 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
o that vein of thought, I would argue that the EU is more of Russia's true concern than NATO is.
I agree. We start conflict all the time for economic influence/dominance. When Russia does it, they're the ultimate evil regime but when we do it, we're supposed to celebrate.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:46 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Putin doesn't believe this shite. He just gives 20 talking points and then has his disinfo warriors push the ones that stick the most, the hardest.
Sounds like the US, doesnt it?
Now ask me why should I care now? No one GAF when he was rolling tanks into Crimea.
You already know the answer, and its a big part of why Americans are losing that loving feeling for this conflict. No one involved has any integrity whatsoever. There are no good guys, just shitty guys fighting slightly less shitty guys.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:46 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
shite, Ukraine would have ended up with a higher standard of living than Russia.
Uh, I think manufacturing there has been gutted since Yanukovych was knocked out. You should watch Ukraine on Fire and Revealing Ukraine. I hate to sound like the anti-globalist lunatic, but what has been done to Ukraine since 2014 sure looks predatory.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:47 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
Not that you should necessarily care what he thinks, but you need to recognize the fact that he has a say in the matter no matter how much you don't want him to. This is a pretty typical attitude of the US that gets us into useless conflicts all over the fricking globe.
sorry i just look at this as he wants to control the whole of central europe again and wants to fulfill his plan of restoring the russian empire like he has said he would like to do in the past.
quote:
I think you need to calm down a little. It's obvious that your rage is clouding your ability to think rationally. Maybe stare at some sunflowers and calm down a little.
promise i am calm, i just think that argument over culture is dumb. this isnt about culture, nazis, saving those in the donbass at all and those things are just russia propagande just like the ghost of kiev etc are ukraine propagande.
putin is nothing but a KGB thug. he miscalculated plain and simple. he thought the international community, specifically the US, would react the same way as they did in 2014. they didnt. now i prolly agree some of that had to do with corruption in the biden admin in ukraine but most had to do with ukraine showed resolve and the ability to resist...something they didnt do in 2014.
promise im calm man, its squatober, no reason to get stressed plus i cant control any of this shite anyways.
This post was edited on 10/3/22 at 12:48 pm
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:47 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:No and
A. We spend $100B to thwart Russia to restore order and return the world to peaceful and trustworthy relations.
quote:
B. We permit Russia to disrupt the international community, which will cost US citizens $300B over 5 years.
How so? What am I personally getting from the Ukraine, Russia, or Europe that will come out of my pocket?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:48 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
We start conflict all the time for economic influence/dominance. When Russia does it, they're the ultimate evil regime but when we do it, we're supposed to celebrate.
If your point is that there is an enormous amount of hypocrisy in foreign relations and the limits of what is "acceptable", you'll get no argument from me.
Putin himself says it often, and he's not wrong. That doesn't justify or legitimize taking territory from a neighbor by force either though.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:48 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Had their enemy been able to launch from Eastern Ukraine instead of central Poland, Russia would have fallen. That is their perspective. They don't give a rat's arse about a shared border with Norway.
Are we in the pre WWII days or 2022? Surely you can understand that a conflict featuring major world powers, who are armed with nuclear weapons, is not fought the same way as WWII right?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:49 pm to riccoar
quote:
Explain to me why If America let's Zelensky be OK with working out a solution with Putin, that costs us a dime?
That's not just going to end the sanctions on Russia
And the transaction costs of the international order being disrupted will be great. Cost of all transactions will go up b/c a bunch of risk has been injected in the system.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:49 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Sounds like the US, doesnt it?
No, when we do it, it's what the good Lord wants us to do.
It's almost like talking to progressives when they tell you we need to burn books that push back on their agenda.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:49 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
I think that's a bit hyperbolic.
is it? is kidnapping kids and sending them back to russia for adoption and to be raised as russians....hyperbolic?
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:50 pm to Vacherie Saint
quote:
Sounds like the US, doesnt it?
Sure OK. Nobody in this thread has said the US is blameless, especially abroad or during the Cold War or War on Terror.
This thread is about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, though.
Posted on 10/3/22 at 12:50 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
That doesn't justify or legitimize taking territory from a neighbor by force either though.
I never said it did. I'm just saying I understand why he did it. I don't know why that opinion always has to be correlated with full support of his actions.
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