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re: For people who don't like the fact we nuked Japan
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:03 pm to Notrub14
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:03 pm to Notrub14
quote:
Again, some of us aren't consequentialists and have a morality that's a little too Christian to accept the idea of doing evil for an arguably net good result.
Arguably net good result? Too bad your grandpa wasn't one of the soldiers in the Bataan death march. The ones who didn't die along the way were castrated. GFY
1
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:05 pm to Ping Pong
Logic doesn't work on progressive history revisionists. The bombs were absolutely necessary and justified. It was a different time and circumstance that will ever be able to be rationalized by most of the soft far left leaning young adults. The same people who tear down statues are the same people that will never understand what it took to win WWII and any other play may have lost the war but certainly would have lost countless lives on both sides.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:07 pm to troyt37
quote:
Arguably net good result? Too bad your grandpa wasn't one of the soldiers in the Bataan death march. The ones who didn't die along the way were castrated. GFY
Can you articulate your notion of collective national guilt that justifies the killing of innocent women and children to punish Japanese atrocities? Thanks.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:10 pm to Bard
The traditional Christian moral teaching that runs from St. Augustine through St. Thomas and on into the modern period explicitly condemns doing evil (e.g., killing innocent non-combatants) because some kind of utilitarian calculus says the net result is good.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:16 pm to Notrub14
quote:
Can you articulate your notion of collective national guilt that justifies the killing of innocent women and children to punish Japanese atrocities? Thanks.
I can articulate this: shite happens when you go to war. If the Japanese Emperor wasn't worried about all of those innocent women and children, then our only option is to neutralize Japan as an Axis power. If he had any concerns for his own people, he would have nixed Pearl Harbor.
Innocent women and children are killed in war. It's just a fact of life. If it is unacceptable to you, don't go to war. I feel bad that they had dickbag leadership, but letting them be was not an option.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:24 pm to troyt37
quote:
The traditional Christian moral teaching that runs from St. Augustine through St. Thomas and on into the modern period explicitly condemns doing evil (e.g., killing innocent non-combatants) because some kind of utilitarian calculus says the net result is good.
Thanks.
Before attempting to use Christianity in a vain attempt to justify not going to war ....I suggest you read in depth the Old Testament ....when God commanded that every man, woman, child and animal were to be killed in a specific city.
Give it a rest ....You are simply using Christianity as a crutch to justify your agenda ....
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:24 pm to bluedragon
quote:
Before attempting to use Christianity in a vain attempt to justify not going to war ....I suggest you read in depth the Old Testament ....when God commanded that every man, woman, child and animal were to be killed in a specific city.
Give it a rest ....You are simply using Christianity as a crutch to justify your agenda ....
I'm actually not a Christian and find the Hebrew Bible morally reprehensible. Luckily, the best historical evidence, including reading between the lines of the Hebrew Bible, indicates that the "conquest" of Canaan didn't actually happen in that manner.
This post was edited on 12/1/21 at 4:26 pm
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:28 pm to Zach
The US firebombed Tokyo with conventional bombs and killed 100,000(many of which were civilians). Would fire bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki have sufficed to get Japan to surrender? What about Kyoto?Why did we need to invade at all? I think the story of “the bomb saved a lot of lives” is a convenient narrative that doesn’t exactly hold true. Invasion was completely unnecessary.
I think the United States using the bomb is a horrendous tragedy that deserves criticism, but I don’t know how unique of a tragedy it was. War is brutal and full of tragedies. How much worse was the nuke than what Japan did to China in the 1930s? I don’t know if it was justified or if I would have done it given the data set at the time, but it’s interesting to think about.
I think the United States using the bomb is a horrendous tragedy that deserves criticism, but I don’t know how unique of a tragedy it was. War is brutal and full of tragedies. How much worse was the nuke than what Japan did to China in the 1930s? I don’t know if it was justified or if I would have done it given the data set at the time, but it’s interesting to think about.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:32 pm to Notrub14
quote:
The traditional Christian moral teaching that runs from St. Augustine through St. Thomas and on into the modern period explicitly condemns doing evil (e.g., killing innocent non-combatants) because some kind of utilitarian calculus says the net result is good.
Thanks.
Neither of which faced a choice between killing a couple hundred thousand or letting a couple hundred thousand (at least) die due to war and famine.
Their teachings simply don't cover it and to attempt using them as an answer shows nothing but your inability to truly grasp the enormity of such a hard choice, much less that those were the only two choices. Instead you would rather hide behind the ancient equivalent of the Kobayashi Maru.
Just admit you are too weak to have made the decision to take lives in order to save lives.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:36 pm to Landmass
My dad fought on Okinawa, and when things were done there he had written orders in hand for the mainland invasion before they dropped the bomb.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:37 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
Invasion was completely unnecessary.
That the Japanese refused to surrender after the first bomb contradicts this.
quote:
I don’t know if it was justified or if I would have done it given the data set at the time, but it’s interesting to think about.
For us, in this day and age, it's almost impossible to put ourselves in that position without some level of MMQ'ing.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:39 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
I think the United States using the bomb is a horrendous tragedy that deserves criticism
Germany destroyed Europe and killed millions.
Italy not far behind.
Considering the fact that carpet bombing was the only method of the time covers the narrative of Allied Forces and their bombing campaign against Germany and Japan.
In the Japanese situation, we are talking about society intentionally isolated .... so isolated that those who survived shipwrecks and wound up on Japanese beaches ...were beheaded to prevent anyone from compromising the society. Beheaded on the beach.
You have to consider ...that was not a period of time where cell phones and smart bombs existed.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:55 pm to tommy2tone1999
If he is still with us, please thank him for my family and myself. Men like him are the true heroes of this country. 
Posted on 12/1/21 at 4:59 pm to Notrub14
quote:
Can you articulate your notion of collective national guilt that justifies the killing of innocent women and children to punish Japanese atrocities?
If you really need to know whether the bombs were necessary, the fact that we had to drop a second one should tell you the answer.
Once the firebombing campaign didn't make them quit, and the Japs refused to surrender but instead were arming women and children and training them to fight to the death when the US invaded, all bets were off.
At that point, Truman's decision making should not have concerned the number of Japs killed. The only two questions he should have been pondering were "How can I end this war quickly, and how can I save as many AMERICAN lives as possible?"
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:05 pm to troyt37
Thanks for your words. He passed away on March 13, 1998. I still have the Arisaka rifle and the bayonet that he took as souvenirs. He never spoke much of the bloody details of that time to us. He only spoke of the funny things that occurred. One such occasion was when they were watching a movie at there base of operations using a bed sheet stretched between palm trees as a screen. The Japs would sneak into the bushes not to ambush, but the watch the movie. When the guards spotted them the shots would ring out, and they would run off back to where they came from. He even had one guy in his unit that would always be AWOL. They found him with a pair of pliers in his pocket and a pocket full of gold teeth from dead Jap soldiers
This post was edited on 12/1/21 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:13 pm to tommy2tone1999
quote:
I'm actually not a Christian and find the Hebrew Bible morally reprehensible. Luckily, the best historical evidence, including reading between the lines of the Hebrew Bible, indicates that the "conquest" of Canaan didn't actually happen in that manner.
You are correct. And because the orders were not followed.....The Jews paid the price ...
Read everything ...not hit and miss.
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:14 pm to Notrub14
quote:
have a morality that's a little too Christian to accept the idea of doing evil for an arguably net good result.
more evil has been done in the name of god than anything else ooph. pissed off some bible thumpers... you do realize, "god" means other religions gods too, not just christianity
This post was edited on 12/1/21 at 7:51 pm
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:15 pm to Zach
quote:frick those people. The result and the images that came out of Japan after it probably kept the Cold War from going nuclear!
For people who don't like the fact we nuked Japan
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:17 pm to Auburn1968
Thanks 68, I was going to post that. LeMay was one lethal SOB, perfect for what we needed to head up bombing in Europe and then Japan. He once said if we lose this war I will be hung as a war criminal.
The only reason Hiroshima, Kokura (the original site prior to Nagasaki and nixed due to weather) and Nagasaki were pristine is due to the fact they told LeMay not to firebomb them so we could ascertain the damage from a nuke once it was operational....now thats pretty sick, but war is hell.
Japan rebounded due to US bucks and an American who revamped their production. Could not get any renowned industrialist but they found this quirky fella named Demming who said he would go and test out his hairbrained idea about continuous improvement.......
The only reason Hiroshima, Kokura (the original site prior to Nagasaki and nixed due to weather) and Nagasaki were pristine is due to the fact they told LeMay not to firebomb them so we could ascertain the damage from a nuke once it was operational....now thats pretty sick, but war is hell.
Japan rebounded due to US bucks and an American who revamped their production. Could not get any renowned industrialist but they found this quirky fella named Demming who said he would go and test out his hairbrained idea about continuous improvement.......
Posted on 12/1/21 at 5:20 pm to Zach
It was a war and we fought back after they attacked us at Pearl Harbor.
The younger generation in this country who never talked to their grandparents or great grand parents that lived during this period should shut the heck up.
My grandmother was a riveter in a plant, my grandfather fought in WW1 worked in a ship repair yard during WWII in San Diego, and my mother collected things as a child that could be recycled for the war effort. Everyone in this country pulled their weight either at home or on the battle field to win this war.
I lost 2 Uncles that I never got to meet, 1 Aunt that worked as a nurse at Pearl Habor, and do the people of Japan care? No
They attacked us which people forget.
They found out what would happen when we came together as a country and fought back.
The younger generation in this country who never talked to their grandparents or great grand parents that lived during this period should shut the heck up.
My grandmother was a riveter in a plant, my grandfather fought in WW1 worked in a ship repair yard during WWII in San Diego, and my mother collected things as a child that could be recycled for the war effort. Everyone in this country pulled their weight either at home or on the battle field to win this war.
I lost 2 Uncles that I never got to meet, 1 Aunt that worked as a nurse at Pearl Habor, and do the people of Japan care? No
They attacked us which people forget.
They found out what would happen when we came together as a country and fought back.
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