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re: Biden to sign EO

Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:43 am to
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51823 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:43 am to
quote:

Then in 1944, in Prince v. Massachusetts, the Court held that states may require vaccination regardless of a parent’s religious objection, stating that, “the right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death.” This case made it clear that religious exemptions offered by states are elective, rather than mandated by the First Amendment’s right to free exercise of religion.


I... just... wow.

Prince was about a woman having (Prince) having a young girl she was guardian for distributing religious literature for donations in a public thoroughfare (Mass law stated at the time that females had to be at least 18 to sell goods/services in a public thoroughfare).

Prince isn't about healthcare nor even just vaccinations, it's about parental authority's limits within the context of child labor laws.

While Prince is being quoted by a few pro-vaxism types, it's pretty lazy. They should instead be looking at Prince pulls from: Jacobson v. Massachusetts

This is the problem.

quote:

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.


quote:

Massachusetts was one of only 11 states that had compulsory vaccination laws. Massachusetts law empowered the board of health of individual cities and towns to enforce mandatory, free vaccinations for adults over the age of 21 if the municipality determined it was necessary for the public health or safety of the community. Adults who refused were subject to a $5 monetary fine. In 1902, faced with an outbreak of smallpox, the Board of Health of the city of Cambridge, Massachusetts adopted a regulation ordering the vaccination or revaccination of all its inhabitants.

Cambridge pastor Henning Jacobson had lived through an era of mandatory vaccinations back in his original home of Sweden. Although the efforts to eradicate smallpox were successful in Sweden, Jacobson's childhood vaccination had gone badly, leaving him with a "lifelong horror of the practice". Jacobson refused vaccination saying that "he and his son had had bad reactions to earlier vaccinations" as children and that Jacobson himself "had been caused great and extreme suffering for a long period by a disease produced by vaccination".


quote:

Justice John Marshall Harlan delivered the decision for a 7–2 majority that the Massachusetts law did not violate the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court held that "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "(r)eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

Furthermore, the Court held that mandatory vaccinations are neither arbitrary nor oppressive so long as they do not "go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public". In Massachusetts, with smallpox being "prevalent and increasing in Cambridge", the regulation in question was "necessary in order to protect the public health and secure the public safety".


Emphasis is mine, it's important because Justice Harlan expanded on it in writing his decision.

quote:

Finally, the Court acknowledged that, in "extreme cases", for certain individuals "in a particular condition of ... health", the requirement of vaccination would be "cruel and inhuman(e)", in which case, courts would be empowered to interfere in order to "prevent wrong and oppression". However, the statute in question was not "intended to be applied to such a case" and Jacobson "did not offer to prove that, by reason of his then condition, he was, in fact, not a fit subject of vaccination".


and...

quote:

"general terms should be so limited in their application as not to lead to injustice, oppression or absurd consequence".


So while Jacobson is the real foundational ruling and Prince is only supportive, Jacobson itself has limits and mandating an increasingly unreliable injection of something which only marginally qualifies as a "vaccine" and is different enough from the smallpox vaccine in efficacy and creation to warrant any or all of those three categorical exemptions (injustice, oppression or absurd consequence).

The vaccine against smallpox is a live-attenuated vaccine while the "vaccines" against SARS-CoV-2 are nucleic acid or viral-vectored thus they lead to two different types of immunity. Historically, the smallpox vaccination has been effective in preventing smallpox infection in 95% of those vaccinated. This is because as part of its efficacy the smallpox/variola vaccine causes "sterilizing immunity" (i.e. the antibodies created by the vaccine clear the virus from the human body entirely).

Thus far though we know that while vaccination against SARS CoV-2 can block symptoms from appearing, we don't know to what extent it hinders transmission. In other words, even though we now know those vaccinated can still be asymptomatic carriers we still don't know when this starts. Along with that we now know that efficacy duration is far less than what was originally stated, to such an extent that comparing it to the smallpox vaccine makes sense in only the most general of discussions.
This post was edited on 9/9/21 at 11:46 am
Posted by Landmass
Member since Jun 2013
18189 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:44 am to
quote:

So has the CDC been tracking numbers for Delta among vax'd and unvax'd? I haven't seen any, except for the UK health website that show the vax'd are getting hammmered with Delta and so is Israel, which is the reason for the booster.

The CDC doesn't care to look at the Delta and how it is impacting the vax'd because then they lose the argument and talking point for the vax.
If you still catch delta with the vax and can spread it around to others, then what is the point of the vax. You spread it around just like an unvax'd person. So they can't let people see that data like what the UK and Israel are providing.
This is an executive order anyway, there is no way this will stand. Just like when there was a threat of EO for mask.


THIS 100%!

I would also like to point out that people that get 1 or two shots and get COVID but it has not been at least 14 days between a second dose and their first symptoms are considered "unvaxxed." This skews the numbers and we have no idea how many people fall in that category. I know a lot of fellow unvaxxed people and everyone that got COVID had very minor symptoms and all recovered quite easily.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
21913 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:47 am to
quote:

so this includes military?


Yes.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111617 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:49 am to
Texhorn alter.
This post was edited on 9/9/21 at 9:50 am
Posted by teke184
Zachary, LA
Member since Jan 2007
96447 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:49 am to
quote:

Thus far though we know that while vaccination against SARS CoV-2 can block symptoms from appearing, we don't know to what extent it hinders transmission. In other words, even though we now know those vaccinated can still be asymptomatic carriers we still don't know when this starts. Along with that we now know that efficacy duration is far less than what was originally stated, to such an extent that comparing it to the smallpox vaccine makes sense in only the most general of discussions.


And herein lies a lot of the problems.

On one hand, you have a vaccine for a disease with an extremely high mortality rate (30%+) which "sterilizing immunity" provides permanent life-long protection from the disease for 95% of people vaccinated.

On the other hand, you have an untested, unproven vaccine which is clearly not stopping transmission on a virus with, at best, a less than 1% chance of death upon contraction. And a lot of those deaths involve comorbidities.



If the disease were as deadly as people claim and the vaccine effective, they wouldn't be having to coerce people into taking it to the degree that they are.
Posted by PsychTiger
Member since Jul 2004
99383 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 9:51 am to
quote:

Biden to sign EO


Coming over from the rant I read this as "Biden to sign Ed Orgeron" and I got a little excited.
Posted by AlterEgo89
Member since Sep 2021
135 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 10:00 am to
quote:


If the disease were as deadly as people claim and the vaccine effective, they wouldn't be having to coerce people into taking it to the degree that they are.


I haven't seen many people claim it's deadly.

I'd have thought if a virus was deadly, it wouldn't spread. The problem is that the virus spreads and it ends up with demographics that are more vulnerable.

For most people, the virus has always been harmless. The problem is the vulnerable people aren't getting vaccinated in certain states. The virus may not reduce transmission much but it does reduce hospitalizations significantly.

If those vulnerable people aren't vaccinated, they end up clogging the system which is the real danger here. It's why most European countries have been taking it very seriously - not because it's deadly for the average person.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51823 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 10:13 am to
quote:

untested, unproven vaccine


I want to be down the middle on this. The problem isn't that these vaccines are untested, it's that they haven't been tested long enough. The pharmas, government, media, etc are all trying to equate quantity of test subjects to quality of time length in testing.

Animal testing was abbreviated and ran partially concurrent with Phase I testing and then the other part of Phase I testing ran concurrent with Phases II - IV. Normally testing is far more sequential with animal testing lasting a year and then Phase I, then Phase II, etc (with periods of analysis between each). This allows for study of longer-term impacts.

The COVID vaccines have been in existence (not just use) for less than two years and have been in the majority of the vaccinated for less than a year (mass vax'ing began December 2020). This lack of long-term data is why we're seeing efficacy estimates dropping like a fricking rock. These are things normally caught in early testing but as the general public is the "early testing", we're all finding this out together in real time.
This post was edited on 9/9/21 at 10:15 am
Posted by oogabooga68
Member since Nov 2018
27194 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 10:40 am to
Damn....I think you just committed a hate-crime, beating C on CCP down like that......
Posted by Joecornbreadbrown
Member since Aug 2021
585 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 11:19 am to
quote:

Thank goodness my wife (no pics) teaches at, and my daughter (no pics) attends a private school.


LOL. You think private schools don’t take any Federal or State money?
Posted by TigerVespamon
Member since Dec 2010
6137 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 11:40 am to
quote:

You think private schools don’t take any Federal or State money?
I can assure you that this school absolutely does not.
This post was edited on 9/9/21 at 11:41 am
Posted by jatilen
Member since May 2020
13608 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 11:47 am to
Imagine if Trump did this...the same media would be up in arms calling for Trump to be impeached (again)
Posted by omegaman66
greenwell springs
Member since Oct 2007
22790 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 11:53 am to
quote:

Anti-vax is a religion now?


No, murder is sin in many religion. You need to read up on how these 'vaccines are made.
Posted by STEVED00
Member since May 2007
22392 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:02 pm to
Once again, previous infection means nothing to these people.
Posted by Jbird
In Bidenville with EthanL
Member since Oct 2012
73479 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:04 pm to


JEN PSAKI

: The White House is signaling that new measures are coming for unvaccinated Americans.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:04 pm to
How much do you want to bet this executive order doesn't apply T anybody in the white house or congress or their staffs
Posted by jchamil
Member since Nov 2009
16549 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

LOL. You think private schools don’t take any Federal or State money?


LOL. You don't think there are plenty of private schools with endowments big enough to say frick off to state or federal funds?
Posted by DavidTheGnome
Monroe
Member since Apr 2015
29233 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:17 pm to
This whole thing is lunacy and completely driven by politics. What if people behaved this way over the polio vaccine.
Posted by oogabooga68
Member since Nov 2018
27194 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:22 pm to
If the people pushing the Polio Vaccine continuously LIED from the getgo and if the people it was being pushed on were as stupid as your average Leftist of today, it would be quite similar.
Posted by Fletch1985
Member since Jun 2020
281 posts
Posted on 9/9/21 at 12:22 pm to
If this applies to federal contractors then a whole lot of people will be subject to the mandate. Millions of businesses are “federal contractors “ simply because they sell something to the government. Think toilet paper, gasoline, food, etc.

Many of these companies are looking for an excuse to implement a mandate, here it is. The others will be put to a decision of whether to continue sales to the government and most will choose the money.
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