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re: Will rampant viewpoint discrimination be a permanent fixture in American life?

Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:13 pm to
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:13 pm to
Well, that's certainly another aspect of it as well. When one of those powerful sources of money is at stake, their beloved principles go right out the fricking window.

Coke will say they're fighting for gay rights then shut the frick up on the rights of Hong Kong protesters marching for actual democracy vs an authoritarian regime.

It's a perfect example of how you can tell their "support" is founded in no principal other than "don't eat me".
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
78057 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:15 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/19/20 at 2:37 pm
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:17 pm to
quote:

Exactly.

It isn’t “empathy”.

It is survival.

It's no different than publicly asking an Iraqi Shia in Baghdad in 1986 how they felt about Saddam. We love him!
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:20 pm to
quote:

Coke will say they're fighting for gay rights then shut the frick up on the rights of Hong Kong protesters marching for actual democracy vs an authoritarian regime.



Even worse. They'll play ball with oppressive regimes to sell their products while pulling out of functions with a right to life org or equivalent here on the basis that said org opposed gay marriage 10 years ago, while ignoring the regime that still openly supports persecution of gays.

I will say that this type of corporate hypocrisy is at least motivated by growth, while actions here (moral stance against some largely inoffensive entity) are motivated by preservation (as you said, "don't eat me.")
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:21 pm to
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
78057 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:00 pm to
Posted by Chuck Barris
Member since Apr 2013
3407 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:31 pm to
To me, this seems circular because I haven't actually seen any evidence in support of your claim that corporations are putting out these statements under threat of violence. At this point, it's just an unfounded assumption.
quote:

The idea that because Americans oppose violent protests but a majority at least "somewhat support" the movement, the protests aren't violent/destructive - is bizarre.
We know Americans dislike violent protests. (You can argue that point if you'd like, but I have no idea why you would.) If a majority of Americans support these protests, then there must be at least a widespread belief that they are not violent. If Americans perceived these protests as violent or intimidating, as you argue that they do, then the protests would not be as popular as they are.
quote:

my position doesn't rest on the premise that the majority or even a large contingent of protests include actual violence/destruction
So according to you, people and corporations are afraid for their lives and property whether or not violence and destruction are actually happening. All you have to do is prove that. Bring some evidence to the table showing that there is widespread fear and intimidation caused by this rhetoric. As of now, the evidence we have (polls of people across all racial groups expressing support for the protests) points in the opposite direction.

At the end of the day, your claim that this isn't the real free market of ideas because companies feel coerced and intimidated into showing support for BLM kind of falls apart without any proof for that claim.

In my opinion, that is a premise that feels truthy to people who think the protests are a bunch of nonsense to begin with but can't actually withstand any scrutiny, like the idea that there's a silent majority out there that have a problem with the current state of the protests but are just too scared of the mean people on Twitter to say so.

Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
33146 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

It's a perfect example of how you can tell their "support" is founded in no principal other than "don't eat me".


Honestly that’s very well put.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

but are just too scared of the mean people on Twitter to say so. 



Social pressure has been a thing for hundreds of thousands of years. It's not new, it's just highly amplified by people too soft to listen to dissenting opinion. When you call everyone you disagree with a "racist" you may be in a cult.

The twittersphere is a cesspool of the nastiest variety.
Posted by Chuck Barris
Member since Apr 2013
3407 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:42 pm to
quote:

. It's not new, it's just highly amplified by people too soft to listen to dissenting opinion. 
I'd argue that the "soft" ones are the people who won't offer a dissenting opinion.
This post was edited on 6/16/20 at 3:43 pm
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
299716 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

argue that the "soft" ones are the people who won't offer a dissenting opinion.


It all depends on how much you have to lose to the mob. The wise decision is to keep off Twitter and Facebook.

The mob doesnt care about truth.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 4:03 pm to
quote:

We know Americans dislike violent protests. (You can argue that point if you'd like, but I have no idea why you would.) If a majority of Americans support these protests, then there must be at least a widespread belief that they are not violent. If Americans perceived these protests as violent or intimidating, as you argue that they do, then the protests would not be as popular as they are.



You're making an assumption whereby "somewhat support" is doing a ton of work here. I somewhat support the protests for George Floyd, but in general I strongly oppose a lot of the movement that is now running the show. I think that would be a fairly common opinion.

quote:

So according to you, people and corporations are afraid for their lives and property whether or not violence and destruction are actually happening. All you have to do is prove that. Bring some evidence to the table showing that there is widespread fear and intimidation caused by this rhetoric. As of now, the evidence we have (polls of people across all racial groups expressing support for the protests) points in the opposite direction.



You're conflating several things here.

First, lukewarm support for protests being used as evidence that people aren't fearful of a movement connected to the protests seems misplaced. I assume you would agree that someone could appreciate the premise of the protests (and respond to Pew with such support) while also fearing for their own job/property etc. at the hands of BLM or Antifa types.

Second, you're misstating my argument. The violence and destruction is happening, obviously that's irrefutable. What I made reference to is that my position isn't based on the idea that it's at the hands of a "majority or even large contingent." You then turned that into a question, apparently, of whether violence or destruction is happening at all, which entirely derails the discussion.

quote:

At the end of the day, your claim that this isn't the real free market of ideas because companies feel coerced and intimidated into showing support for BLM kind of falls apart without any proof for that claim.



I think I deemed it a "fricked up" free market of ideas. One that is built on the basis of false narratives and authorities that typically regulate the free market (of ideas) not functioning. Moreover, the only evidence you've provided in support of your position are generalized maxims about corporations pursuing profit and polling showing some degree of support for some type of protests. I don't find that particularly compelling, as you likely expect.

I do find some of your position credible, and if I thought you were a free market absolutist, your reasoning would resonate somewhat. But I think you're a proponent of the underlying views (promotion of BLM aims and exclusion of opposing viewpoints) rather than the vehicle for those views (allegedly, the free market of ideas). And I find them generally incompatible, considering the political ideology underlying the movement is not one supportive of the free market of ideas (at least without the threat of violence or destruction or tools like a dishonest media).

Which overall makes the free market promotion seem disingenuous. You provided some caveated support for my hypo previously, but again, I have to think your enthusiasm would wane if the prevailing winds shift against the movement.



Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 4:04 pm to
quote:

I'd argue that the "soft" ones are the people who won't offer a dissenting opinion.



Ok, but if someone offers a dissenting opinion and the mob comes for their livelihood, what's your position?

"sucks, that's the free market for you"?
Posted by bhtigerfan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2008
33618 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 4:15 pm to
quote:

So in this scenario, a Coke employee makes a public statement.

Consumers learn of this statement, and tell Coke, "Fire this person or we won't buy Coke anymore."

Coke, being a free, capitalist business, exercises their right to fire an employee.

Other businesses exercise their own rights to decide whether or not to hire this person.

Again, what's the alternative?
The alternative?

Coke says, “frick you. All lives matter is not racist. We’re not firing him. If you don’t like it, drink Pepsi motherfricker.”
Posted by ELVIS U
Member since Feb 2007
11944 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 4:17 pm to
No, people will adapt and learn how to keep their opinions to themselves.
Posted by Goldrush25
San Diego, CA
Member since Oct 2012
33964 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 4:26 pm to
Have you seen the Poliboard whenever a dissenting view is shared?

Neither side has the market cornered on the angry mob mentality.
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
33146 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 6:12 pm to
quote:

Have you seen the Poliboard whenever a dissenting view is shared?

Neither side has the market cornered on the angry mob mentality.



Does the PT board tried to get people with opposing views fired?
Posted by dewster
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
26628 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 6:42 pm to
quote:

When you call everyone you disagree with a "racist" you may be in a cult.


This is why everyone should be careful to remove anything that can easily identify your home address, employer, etc. from social media platforms like Twitter or Facebook.
Posted by goofball
Member since Mar 2015
17356 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 6:48 pm to
quote:

Neither side has the market cornered on the angry mob mentality.


Please point to the cancel culture on display on the PT board.
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