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re: Will rampant viewpoint discrimination be a permanent fixture in American life?

Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:43 pm to
Posted by xxTIMMYxx
Member since Aug 2019
17562 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:43 pm to
quote:

Lawsuits for what?


Getting fired for no good reason
Posted by mmmmmbeeer
ATL
Member since Nov 2014
10189 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:47 pm to
quote:

In the Coke hypo, I don't think that's true. In lieu of the hypo, use any boring company that has issued some BLM-support statement even though few if any in that community are customers or targets. The truth is that this is about preservation (we're concerned with being stigmatized or harmed by rioting and avoiding loss), but that's not what you're suggesting.


And internal corporate emails? I know my company pushed out an internal email supporting social changes and commenting on the Floyd murder. There were no customers targeted by the email, no money to be made, there were no employees threatening to burn down our assets....they just felt the need to comment and show support. I'm sure it pissed some employees off but the overwhelming majority of not only employees, but Americans in general, feel that this is a time of reckoning and my employer was letting us know that they're supportive of that reckoning.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:51 pm to
quote:

And internal corporate emails? I know my company pushed out an internal email supporting social changes and commenting on the Floyd murder. There were no customers targeted by the email, no money to be made, there were no employees threatening to burn down our assets....they just felt the need to comment and show support. I'm sure it pissed some employees off but the overwhelming majority of not only employees, but Americans in general, feel that this is a time of reckoning and my employer was letting us know that they're supportive of that reckoning.



Play this out

What happens if they don't put out the statement? Angry employees go public that Coke hasn't said shite about BLM. Do you think it's more likely they're genuinely worried about employee concerns about Coke's silence, or do they know and expect that their statement will be released to the public and/or that their silence will be discussed in public?

Now, to argue against myself a bit, I do think we're also seeing the fruits of letting the nutjobs get off the campuses. For years we said "Oh, it's just Berkley" and now the Berkley kids are directors of diversity at Coke. So I do suspect some political influences in the structures of these corporations are helping to push narratives and messaging. But I think both internal and external statements are largely motivated by fear.
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
78057 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:53 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/19/20 at 2:39 pm
Posted by Chuck Barris
Member since Apr 2013
3407 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:54 pm to
quote:

It's not my assumption. It's a direct response to a premise you presented regarding corporations acting in their interests by appealing to minority dollars.
I've gone back over my posts here, and I don't believe I've ever referenced "minority dollars." As I've said before, I think corporations are responsive to social movements to the extent that it will make them money, and I believe a large part of why they're publicly supportive of BLM right now is because that movement has support that crosses racial lines.
quote:

I might, if the LGBT crowd was burning down stuff like elements of the BLM crowd are. But regardless, as mentioned repeatedly, stigma promotes fear just as physical destruction & violence does.
"Stigma" is a very strong term for "people viewing your company unfavorably." Why are you arguing as if this is the first time companies have ever felt pressure to avoid a negative brand image? They manage their public perception constantly, and they have been for a very long time.

Again, what is the alternative to allowing people to view companies unfavorably based on their actions and allowing companies to respond to public opinion by shaping their brand image? People are judging companies based on their actions and statements, and companies are responding to consumer sentiment by positioning themselves to be as profitable as possible, and it seems to me that those are both things that ought to be allowed in a free society.
quote:

. It also ignores the underlying threat of violence that has been raised, 
There isn't a threat of violence on a level that would concern any major corporation. (I'm keeping this discussion on the level of large corporations because that's what we've been discussing in the past few posts.) Your entire view on this issue is based on the premise that corporations are essentially being forced into social compliance by the threat of violence, and I find that laughable. Looting and vandalism are of course, wrong in and of themselves. That said, the vast majority of protesters are peaceful, and the looting that has happened is sporadic and local. These are crimes of opportunity, not a coordinated plan to force Fortune 500 companies into compliance. The people who looted a Target in Florida didn't stop to check whether or not Target had posted a pro-BLM statement on Instagram before they broke into the store. There's no evidence to prove any correlation between a company's public statements and whether or not one of their franchises gets robbed. This scenario of executives quaking with fear over the safety of their property while they plead with the marketing department to shape a tweet that will be sincere enough to keep looters away just isn't based in reality.
quote:

I assume, that if the tide turned and the silent majority of Americans began telling BLM to shut up, perhaps with some destruction and violence thrown in to bolster the demand, and corporations responded to that by public statements disavowing protestors as terrorists, you'd maintain your stance that this is freedom and the free market at work?
If there wasn't widespread public support for anti-police brutality movements, companies wouldn't be making these statements. I have no expectation of any company, much less publicly traded ones, to do anything that isn't linked to making them more money. In such a scenario, yes, I would expect companies to put out "Blue lives matter, we stand with our brave police" type statements, and yes, I would be arguing that it's their right to do so and that we're just seeing the free market at work. I would have my rights to judge a company for making those statements and to decide if I ever wanted to do business with them again, and so would everyone else, which is exactly what's happening right now.
Posted by mmmmmbeeer
ATL
Member since Nov 2014
10189 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 12:59 pm to
quote:

What happens if they don't put out the statement? Angry employees go public that Coke hasn't said shite about BLM. Do you think it's more likely they're genuinely worried about employee concerns about Coke's silence, or do they know and expect that their statement will be released to the public and/or that their silence will be discussed in public?


Thank God I'm not in brand management so, for all I know, they felt threatened in some way and decided it was best to comment. It's impossible for me to say. I genuinely feel, and this could be due to your second point, that there's a sea change occurring and these corporate types truly believe they're standing up for what they believe is right; encouraged in some sense, rather than scared, by the current political and social atmospheres.

Of course, as someone who believes corporations are by and large harming society and milking taxpayers dry, I probably should know better than to give ANY thought to a corporation having any sense of empathy
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:09 pm to
quote:

Again, what is the alternative to allowing people to view companies unfavorably based on their actions and allowing companies to respond to public opinion by shaping their brand image? People are judging companies based on their actions and statements, and companies are responding to consumer sentiment by positioning themselves to be as profitable as possible, and it seems to me that those are both things that ought to be allowed in a free society.



The alternative is the proposal this conversation began with - a critical mass of the majority which is silent right now standing up and saying "enough".

I haven't seen a single person in this thread argue for something outside of letting the free market work, aside from a factor I've continually raised, which is governmental authorities not doing their job to appease the mob.

quote:

This scenario of executives quaking with fear over the safety of their property while they plead with the marketing department to shape a tweet that will be sincere enough to keep looters away just isn't based in reality.


It seems odd to use a Target example considering they've been specifically targeted in multiple cities and are based in Minneapolis. But the point isn't that if Auto Zone doesn't post a black square Auto Zone will get burned down (although it's hard to argue that concern would be at least somewhat rational). The point is that the movement we're discussing has an element of violence and destruction to it. On a macro level, the movement (in which "peaceful protestors" proclaim all cops are bastards, pigs should fry like bacon, and that there will be no peace without their vision of justice) is creating pretty widespread havoc and destruction and is demanding to be appeased with ritualistic submission and absolution before things can return to normal.

Surely you'd agree that March for Life, which doesn't engage in violence or destruction on any noteworthy scale, poses less business threat than a movement where buildings burn, glass is broken, curfews are enacted and businesses are forced to shorten their hours?

The violence and destruction amplifies the voices of the extremist minority. No, it may not mean Coke trucks get burned (although it might), but it bullies individuals into going along with whatever the extremists want from Coke. "Not sure we should go to the pro-Trump restaurant because I don't want my tires slashed." The person making that decision isn't a legitimate free speech actor expressing a view against a restaurant supporting Trump. They're avoiding the restaurant because of fear of the mob. And the restaurant, to stay in business, has to kneel in order to get back in the good graces of the mob so the reasonable man can return and spend his money.

Posted by Chuck Barris
Member since Apr 2013
3407 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:34 pm to
quote:

The alternative is the proposal this conversation began with - a critical mass of the majority which is silent right now standing up and saying "enough".
There is no "silent majority" opposed to anti-police brutality demonstrations. It doesn't exist.

Majorities across racial and ethnic groups express support for the Black Lives Matter Movement

If polls don't convince you, consider that corporate marketing/PR departments, whose literal job is to understand public attitudes, clearly don't think it exists either.
quote:

On a macro level, the movement (in which "peaceful protestors" proclaim all cops are bastards, pigs should fry like bacon, and that there will be no peace without their vision of justice) is creating pretty widespread havoc and destruction
No, it really isn't. The vast majority of people protesting haven't damaged property or committed any violence at all. Given that an actual majority of Americans oppose violent protests, the fact that two thirds of Americans support the movement and 38% "strongly support" it shows that violence isn't widespread. If it was this orgy of violence and destruction that you're making it out to be, it wouldn't be as popular as it is.
quote:

The violence and destruction amplifies the voices of the extremist minority.
Actually it would effectively marginalize those voices and would be the fastest possible path to the public turning on the movement.
quote:

"Not sure we should go to the pro-Trump restaurant because I don't want my tires slashed."
It seems odd to use tire slashing as an example considering Minneapolis police have been caught on video slashing tires of people attending protests.

You are vastly overstating the level of violence associated with the protests and the level of fear of that violence. If Applebees doesn't make a statement on BLM, the tires of your average Applebees patron in Des Moines are perfectly safe.
This post was edited on 6/16/20 at 1:35 pm
Posted by Chuck Barris
Member since Apr 2013
3407 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:36 pm to
quote:

I probably should know better than to give ANY thought to a corporation having any sense of empathy
Yep, pretty much. At the point where large corporations are putting out bland statements vaguely supporting a cause that was considered extreme decades ago, you've accomplished very real change. As a person who spent part of the Nineties arguing that it was stupid that gay people couldn't get married, I've seen it happen,
This post was edited on 6/16/20 at 1:38 pm
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:43 pm to
quote:

Majorities across racial and ethnic groups express support for the Black Lives Matter Movement



That seems like a misleading title for the poll. One can tacitly support certain aspects of a movement without supporting the movement as a whole. Using "somewhat support" as a definitive "support" doesn't seem very honest to me.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:45 pm to
This is getting extremely circular with you, albeit understandably due to your premise. For example:

quote:

If polls don't convince you, consider that corporate marketing/PR departments, whose literal job is to understand public attitudes, clearly don't think it exists either.



We've just spent pages debating whether corporate PR is actually reflecting public viewpoints or whether it's reacting to intimidation.

quote:

No, it really isn't. The vast majority of people protesting haven't damaged property or committed any violence at all.


Not responsive to my post, which discussed the violent/unpeaceful rhetoric of the mainstream movement. The idea that because Americans oppose violent protests but a majority at least "somewhat support" the movement, the protests aren't violent/destructive - is bizarre. But more importantly, it's irrelevant, because my position doesn't rest on the premise that the majority or even a large contingent of protests include actual violence/destruction. That said, the rhetoric from mainstream portions of the protestors (as described in my post) certainly insulates/encourages ongoing destruction and violence, which, once again, bolsters the threat to both individuals, and by proxy, corporations.

quote:

Actually it would effectively marginalize those voices and would be the fastest possible path to the public turning on the movement.



In practice, yes, let's hope so. In fact, I expect this to occur.

quote:

It seems odd to use tire slashing as an example considering Minneapolis police have been caught on video slashing tires of people attending protests.



This is where you let the mask slip. My response was directly related to our conversation and your position (on Target). This is completely irrelevant to our discussion and appears to reflect you dropping back into some bizarre police vs. protestors debate that we're not having.



Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:51 pm to
quote:

We've just spent pages debating whether corporate PR is actually reflecting public viewpoints or whether it's reacting to intimidation.


These PR strategies are heavily rooted in social media research. They essentially need to get the pulse of the most vocal and potentially violent/ruinous voices in order stay ahead of the outrage game. PR is now relegated to preventing the mobs from destroying your brand, not promotion.
Posted by Pettifogger
I don't really care, Margaret
Member since Feb 2012
87749 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:52 pm to
It's become everyday crisis management as opposed to traditional marketing, IMO.
Posted by JohnnyKilroy
Cajun Navy Vice Admiral
Member since Oct 2012
41936 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:54 pm to
quote:

SOMEONE WHO TRULY BELIEVES ALL LIVES MATTER.....


Stay home
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
139239 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:55 pm to
It's certainly a beast these brands have never had to deal with before. Their promotion strategy is basically to agree with the prevailing PC cause de jour by repeating what the mob demands and slapping their logo on it.
Posted by CGSC Lobotomy
Member since Sep 2011
81611 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 1:57 pm to
quote:

Lawsuits for what?


Harassment
Extortion
Criminal Mischief
Blackmail
Doxxing is a crime in many states
Intent to commit assault
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
78057 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:00 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/19/20 at 2:37 pm
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:02 pm to
It already was.
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
78057 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:08 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/19/20 at 2:37 pm
Posted by Dick Leverage
In The HizHouse
Member since Nov 2013
9000 posts
Posted on 6/16/20 at 2:13 pm to
Corporations and large companies issue public statements on LinkedIn to control brand management. The smallest portion of incentive is out of genuine support. The majorly of incentive is out of precaution. They are trying to get out ahead of the mob. 1.They build the “fall back on “ content and publish it beforehand so they can point back to their “published” policy in the event that they become the cause de jour. 2. They also do it to help dissuade would be cancelers from attacking them in the first place.

Make no mistake.....it is an act of self preservation based on fear and intimidation learned over the last 8-12 years.
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