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re: Not basing laws on morality
Posted on 9/16/21 at 3:18 pm to Odysseus32
Posted on 9/16/21 at 3:18 pm to Odysseus32
quote:
There is no morality. Never has been, never will be.
Bull. Crap.
0
Posted on 9/16/21 at 3:22 pm to Bullfrog
quote:I'm just using the definition as provided in the 10 commandments. That is, he is the author of them. The first says "I am the lord thy god", and the tenth says yeah you can own people just don't covet the people your neighbor owns.
That depends on your definition of god.
quote:I'm not sure if you've noticed, but you are using the ten commandments as the foundation of your ideal law, but you are discarding the part you don't like because you have already argued against it. And now you are taking them out of the context of their author, because...?
And I think you noticed god was not part of my Moses comment.
And all of this just goes to support the view that morality is subjective, hence there can be no objective truth.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 5:03 pm to Korkstand
quote:No. That example was of Moses using the appeal to authority in his method of ruling his people.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but you are using the ten commandments as the foundation of your ideal law, but you are discarding the part you don't like because you have already argued against it. And now you are taking them out of the context of their author, because...?
It is also a key event to the development of Western Civilization and a great illustration of the importance of property protection for a durable society.
quote:Only if you are a shallow thinker. Morality flows from respect of property, in all its forms.
And all of this just goes to support the view that morality is subjective, hence there can be no objective truth.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 5:04 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 5:21 pm to Bullfrog
quote:And what have you done by mentioning him?
No. That example was of Moses using the appeal to authority in his method of ruling his people.
quote:
Only if you are a shallow thinker.
quote:We've established that what qualifies as property changes over time (people were then weren't, IP wasn't then was). What does that say about morality?
Morality flows from respect of property, in all its forms.
There are also many actions that most would deem immoral which have nothing to do with property of any kind. Can something be immoral when no property is involved, IYO?
Posted on 9/16/21 at 5:57 pm to BayouBengal23
You make laws based on personal property rights. All people have them and all private businesses have them
Pedophilia violates the child's ppr. Telling a private business they must mandate the vaccine violates a businesses ppr.
Trans competing in sports violates the other competitors ppr by giving an unfair advantage
Gay marriage has no effect on anyone other than the two so long as government doesn't mandate that churches, which are private entities, have to marry any and everyone because that violates the churches ppr.
Abortion violates the ppr of the child jn the womb. Many will say it's not a child but their have been children that have survived after only 20 weeks of pregnancy so even if you don't believe it's a child after 20 weeks it can survive outside the host, therefore has ppr.
Again pretty much everything boils down to personal property rights.
Pedophilia violates the child's ppr. Telling a private business they must mandate the vaccine violates a businesses ppr.
Trans competing in sports violates the other competitors ppr by giving an unfair advantage
Gay marriage has no effect on anyone other than the two so long as government doesn't mandate that churches, which are private entities, have to marry any and everyone because that violates the churches ppr.
Abortion violates the ppr of the child jn the womb. Many will say it's not a child but their have been children that have survived after only 20 weeks of pregnancy so even if you don't believe it's a child after 20 weeks it can survive outside the host, therefore has ppr.
Again pretty much everything boils down to personal property rights.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 6:12 pm to Korkstand
You are quite full of lifeboat cases, aren’t you?
Well what about X, Y, Z, AA, AB, …. I don’t really care about your lifeboat cases that cannot ever end.
Well wut aboot
…
I’ve given you enough to make a cohesive framework for morality as a profitable and durable standard to live by that flows from technological and societal advances that were only possible after enough time has passed and as civilization has progressed.
It requires a good and understandable semantic bridge between us which we frankly, don’t have, to have an optimal discussion.
Plus I’m tired as shite and my day is now done.
Good luck in all your pursuits.
Well what about X, Y, Z, AA, AB, …. I don’t really care about your lifeboat cases that cannot ever end.
Well wut aboot
… I’ve given you enough to make a cohesive framework for morality as a profitable and durable standard to live by that flows from technological and societal advances that were only possible after enough time has passed and as civilization has progressed.
It requires a good and understandable semantic bridge between us which we frankly, don’t have, to have an optimal discussion.
Plus I’m tired as shite and my day is now done.
Good luck in all your pursuits.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 6:59 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 6:16 pm to Jake88
I'm not a sophomore, I'm a senior. Moreover, I'm a nontraditional student finishing up my accounting degree. I'll be 30 next year. But most importantly, I've held that belief for about a decade now. Don't see it changing any time soon.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 6:59 pm to Odysseus32
quote:You need to grow up then.
I'll be 30 next year. But most importantly, I've held that belief for about a decade now
Posted on 9/16/21 at 7:54 pm to Bullfrog
quote:The point is you've had to construct a framework (property rights) on which to build a case for "objective" morality. Ownership, like morality, is an idea that we've invented.
I’ve given you enough to make a cohesive framework for morality as a profitable and durable standard to live by
I don't disagree that property rights and a shared sense of morality are required for a functional society, I am only arguing that neither is inherent to life or even humanity.
quote:Same to you.
Good luck in all your pursuits.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 8:08 pm to Odysseus32
quote:
There is no morality. Never has been, never will be.
There is how you personally feel about things and that's it. The world and universe as a whole is incredibly indifferent about murder, rape, abortion, and anything else you find abhorrent.
Well this entire post is false. It's laughable tbh.
Posted on 9/17/21 at 7:40 am to Jake88
quote:
You need to grow up then.
I'd posit that thinking anyone with a dissenting opinion "needs to grow up" is a more telling sign of immaturity.
Good luck.
Posted on 9/17/21 at 8:13 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
The line is pretty easy to draw. It's illegal when it causes damage to another person. A guy having fantasies about children is disgusting but not illegal. A guy raping a child hurts the child. Therefore, it's illegal.
Not all laws are based on morality, like wearing a seatbelt.
Posted on 9/17/21 at 8:14 am to BayouBengal23
When I was very young I was seduced by this sort of logic and swept up in this sort of "universal morality" of basing laws just on some vague "morality" of love, peace, hope, whatever, hippie stuff. I hung out with hippies and ultra liberals and their little circles and societies.
After some number of years of watching little subcultures continually try to craft rules for themselves to address the problems that kept coming up, and they were ALWAYS the same problems, I became troubled and it really made me think. How come peace and love and harmony philosophies kept ending up with circles of friends where women were abandoned, kids were hungry, sometimes both were abused, and so on? Weren't we supposed to be better than evil patriarchal religious people? If only there were some code of law that would prevent all of this...
Yeah it didn't take much longer after that before I wised up and got out of all of that. Don't let them fool you, liberal people and their circles of friends are usually miserable, suffer from mental illness, high rates of divorce, can't manage to take care of kids, women, abuse rates are terrible. I've seen it all close up and personal. It's almost like picking and choosing your own morality just doesn't work.
After some number of years of watching little subcultures continually try to craft rules for themselves to address the problems that kept coming up, and they were ALWAYS the same problems, I became troubled and it really made me think. How come peace and love and harmony philosophies kept ending up with circles of friends where women were abandoned, kids were hungry, sometimes both were abused, and so on? Weren't we supposed to be better than evil patriarchal religious people? If only there were some code of law that would prevent all of this...
Yeah it didn't take much longer after that before I wised up and got out of all of that. Don't let them fool you, liberal people and their circles of friends are usually miserable, suffer from mental illness, high rates of divorce, can't manage to take care of kids, women, abuse rates are terrible. I've seen it all close up and personal. It's almost like picking and choosing your own morality just doesn't work.
Posted on 9/17/21 at 8:22 am to Loup
At least half the world, and this includes the half of the world you personally will usually deal with, believes in one of the three major faiths that has some central tenets of morality/faith we all agree upon, namely:
Murder is wrong;
Theft is wrong;
Adultery is wrong;
Various forms of sexual immorality are toxic to society;
There is one God who exists but in some spirit form we generally cannot see;
We should give charity to the poor, especially people who are helpless in some way such as disabled people or orphans;
Forgiving people who have wronged you is a great good;
A justice system in society is necessary and should be set up by societies leaders.
Even Westerners who don't feel they have a religion anymore agree with most of these things.
Murder is wrong;
Theft is wrong;
Adultery is wrong;
Various forms of sexual immorality are toxic to society;
There is one God who exists but in some spirit form we generally cannot see;
We should give charity to the poor, especially people who are helpless in some way such as disabled people or orphans;
Forgiving people who have wronged you is a great good;
A justice system in society is necessary and should be set up by societies leaders.
Even Westerners who don't feel they have a religion anymore agree with most of these things.
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