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re: Not basing laws on morality
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:26 pm to Tigers2010a
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:26 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:Ones that lack morality as we know it today? The vikings were pretty brutal. More recently the Germans seemed to lack certain morals. There are obviously subcultures today even here in the US where our idea of morals don't seem to apply.
Can you give me a specific example of a culture lacking any sense of morality?
My point is that morality is subjective, and that your argument that consciousness is the root of morality is flawed. I think a stronger argument is in the other direction, our consciousness causes us to sometimes act contrary to what we normally think of as "moral".
For example, one of the most basic moral principles is that murder is bad, which stems from the golden rule "do unto others.." But most species on the planet tend to not murder their own kind, because if they did then they wouldn't exist. Intra-species murder does not lead to a successful species. So avoiding murder seems to be deeper than consciousness, it's ingrained in us as living creatures. And it is our consciousness that allows us to justify some killings, to differentiate between indiscriminate and acceptable killing. The same goes for many altruistic behaviors that tend to benefit the species as a whole. Morality is a layer that we've created and applied on top of these behaviors.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 12:31 pm
2
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:35 pm to Korkstand
quote:
It is tough because on the one hand the life being snuffed is completely innocent, but on the other if allowed to proceed would be the living embodiment of the worst thing that ever happened to another person.
exactly, there are two victims in this case
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:35 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Ones that lack morality as we know it today? The vikings were pretty brutal. More recently the Germans seemed to lack certain morals. There are obviously subcultures today even here in the US where our idea of morals don't seem to apply.
No, I was asking if you can give an example of a culture that lacks "any" sense of morality. That would mean the culture has no standards of right or wrong. Because if a culture has any sense of morality at all, then morality exists.
quote:
My point is that morality is subjective, and that your argument that consciousness is the root of morality is flawed. I think a stronger argument is in the other direction, our consciousness causes us to sometimes act contrary to what we normally think of as "moral".
The argument is whether morality is an inherent quality of human consciousness. To prove this statement incorrect, you must demonstrate an absence of morality. It doesn't matter whether morality is subjective or objective, the mere existence of any form of morality fails to prove that morality does not exist.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:50 pm to Korkstand
quote:
For example, one of the most basic moral principles is that murder is bad, which stems from the golden rule "do unto others.." But most species on the planet tend to not murder their own kind, because if they did then they wouldn't exist. Intra-species murder does not lead to a successful species. So avoiding murder seems to be deeper than consciousness, it's ingrained in us as living creatures. And it is our consciousness that allows us to justify some killings, to differentiate between indiscriminate and acceptable killing. The same goes for many altruistic behaviors that tend to benefit the species as a whole. Morality is a layer that we've created and applied on top of these behaviors.
The fact that morality is ignored does not mean morality does not exist.
Here is the original statement by a poster that I responded to:
quote:
There is no morality. Never has been, never will be.
This statement doesn't make any sense to me. So all I have posted is an argument that morality must exist. To counter that argument, I must see an argument demonstrating that morality does not exist. Although I have noted that the poster has not responded to my argument. Maybe later.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 12:53 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 12:55 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:I don't know why you would ask me to provide an example of a culture that lacks "any" morals, because I didn't claim there to ever be one. Quite the opposite, my claim is that any behavior can be construed as moral because morality is subjective.
No, I was asking if you can give an example of a culture that lacks "any" sense of morality. That would mean the culture has no standards of right or wrong. Because if a culture has any sense of morality at all, then morality exists.
quote:It's your claim, you have to prove it true.
The argument is whether morality is an inherent quality of human consciousness. To prove this statement incorrect, you must demonstrate an absence of morality.
And the simple fact that different cultures have different sets of morals means that you have to define the set that you are arguing stem from consciousness. Once you do that I can counter.
quote:I never said it doesn't exist, but its existence is due to the fact that we created it. And we mold it to mean what we want it to mean. This should be obvious.
It doesn't matter whether morality is subjective or objective, the mere existence of any form of morality fails to prove that morality does not exist.
The only relation that morals seem to have with consciousness is that consciousness is required to define what is and is not moral behavior. The behaviors themselves exist with or without consciousness, and conscious beings sometimes behave immorally.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:00 pm to BayouBengal23
We have too many laws, period. We don't need more new laws, we need to eliminate old laws and focus on the stuff that matters.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:02 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:The point was that you can pick any behavior that you define as moral, and consciousness is about as likely to cause us to do it as it is to cause us to do the opposite.
The fact that morality is ignored does not mean morality does not exist.
quote:Then it seems that you have trouble thinking outside your own box. The point here is that "morality" has no bearing whatsoever on the operation of the universe. Nothing that happens is either moral or immoral until someone comes along to label it.quote:This statement doesn't make any sense to me.
There is no morality. Never has been, never will be.
quote:It exists in its many forms because we have caused it to exist.
So all I have posted is an argument that morality must exist.
quote:You're not getting the meaning of "there is no morality".
To counter that argument, I must see an argument demonstrating that morality does not exist.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:32 pm to Korkstand
quote:
And the simple fact that different cultures have different sets of morals means that you have to define the set that you are arguing stem from consciousness. Once you do that I can counter.
I have postulated that a sense of right and wrong is an inherent quality of consciousness. Right and wrong defines morality. Thus all human consciousness has a sense of morality regardless of how it is reflected by a culture. Picking a culture is meaningless as it doesn't change the fact that a form of morality exists. I get the sense we are arguing very different points.
quote:
The only relation that morals seem to have with consciousness is that consciousness is required to define what is and is not moral behavior. The behaviors themselves exist with or without consciousness, and conscious beings sometimes behave immorally.
Is right/wrong/morality a creation of consciousness or an inherent fundamental quality of consciousness?
Also I would say without consciousness, the behaviors could not exist as consciousness appears unique in this universe as active agents of free will. Bearing that in mind, is the sense of right/wrong/morality fundamental qualities or creations of consciousness? If only one consciousness existed, would that consciousness have a sense of right and wrong? Or must a consciousness interact with another consciousness before that sense of right and wrong is revealed...or created?
For me, those are key questions and probably unanswerable. If that sense of right and wrong is created, then it is possible under certain conditions that it may not be created and thus not exist. If it is an inherent quality, then it always exists as does morality.
I would say in our world, morality definitely exists and exists in the consciousness of all humans whether created or an inherent quality.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:34 pm to Korkstand
quote:
You're not getting the meaning of "there is no morality".
Ah...I get it. You are jerking me around, wasting my time, trolling me...won't happen again.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:39 pm to Loup
quote:
exactly, there are two victims in this case.
Yes but one is the victim of rape or molestation and the other a victim of murder.
One continues to live their life with many possibilities and outcomes. The aborted chid is cut off from any and all future possibilities on the speculative grounds their death will possibly mitigate another’s future suffering.
It’s disproportionate and macabre.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 1:53 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:No, not at all.quote:Ah...I get it. You are jerking me around, wasting my time, trolling me...won't happen again.
You're not getting the meaning of "there is no morality".
When the other poster said "there is no morality", that just means morality and right/wrong are completely subjective. There is no strict definition. Morality is a construct of our minds. Different people can and do disagree on what is moral and what is not.
Even the strictly religious believe that right and wrong were undefined until god himself defined them. In other words, morality is not an inherent quality of the creation itself, rather it came to exist by decree.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:08 pm to Korkstand
quote:IDK. Some people are born 100% moral.
Even the strictly religious believe that right and wrong were undefined until god himself defined them. In other words, morality is not an inherent quality of the creation itself, rather it came to exist by decree.
Others learn it. How to behave in a civilized world. What’s acceptable What’s repugnant.
When Israel’s greatest king came down from the mountain after carving into stone, the 10 commandments, Mosaic Law was born and most of them were centered around respect for others property.
But those property rules were around long before Moses. He codified them and that has kept the Jewish culture alive and well for 1000’s of years.
Morality is a derivative of the respect for private ownership.
Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you, is a better expression but is cumbersome due to the double negatives.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:19 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:And my view is that the ability to decide what is right and wrong is the inherent quality of consciousness, not morality itself.
I have postulated that a sense of right and wrong is an inherent quality of consciousness.
quote:A creation.
Is right/wrong/morality a creation of consciousness or an inherent fundamental quality of consciousness?
quote:The behaviors definitely exist without consciousness, the animal kingdom is rife with rape and murder. Tell me if I understand your view correctly:
Also I would say without consciousness, the behaviors could not exist as consciousness appears unique in this universe as active agents of free will.
If a duck "rapes" another duck, it's not really rape because they can't discern right from wrong. The act is the same, only the intent and awareness differ. But if the ducks were conscious and self-aware, then the same act is rape and morally wrong? If so, is it rape now only in your mind, or should it also be rape in the ducks' minds?
quote:Consciousness gives us the ability to define and decide what is moral, so in that sense it exists because we have created it.
I would say in our world, morality definitely exists and exists in the consciousness of all humans whether created or an inherent quality.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:22 pm to BayouBengal23
quote:
For instance, topics like gay marriage, abortion, transgenders competing in sports, etc... All of these things have been based on what is right or wrong morally. Many times the argument is thats how they feel. You can not tell someone how they feel. Where do we draw the line?
Where the constitution says all people are equal and have the right to the pursuit of happiness.
quote:
Pedophilia is trying to be passed right now...
What? Please link this. You’re making this up.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:23 pm to Bullfrog
quote:Doesn't the 10th commandment treat people as property? Some versions mention slaves directly, right?
When Israel’s greatest king came down from the mountain after carving into stone, the 10 commandments, Mosaic Law was born and most of them were centered around respect for others property.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:30 pm to BayouBengal23
quote:
. California is trying to make pedophilia legal
nope
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:43 pm to Korkstand
quote:And in the past 50-60 years, Intellectual Property as a separate branch of law has become mainstream when that used to be the ideas of crazy people.
Doesn't the 10th commandment treat people as property? Some versions mention slaves directly, right?
As knowledge and understanding increase, society evolves. The ownership of people was wrong then and now we have evolved enough and spilled enough blood over it to make the present and future quite different.
You build on the past. You get better. Just like people who weren’t born 100% moral. Morality can be taught and learned.
Especially when morality is profitable. When Yelp reviews are quick to call out the cheating business. When you can’t bounce checks anymore.
Technology is driving morality, in the larger scheme of many everyday activities.
Bad actors get called out. If you don’t think so, you should get that Matt Morris guy to build you something. Or use technology to avoid people of that ilk.
Morality is becoming more profitable and that’s a good thing.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:54 pm to Bullfrog
quote:Even god got morality wrong though?
As knowledge and understanding increase, society evolves. The ownership of people was wrong then and now we have evolved enough and spilled enough blood over it to make the present and future quite different.
Posted on 9/16/21 at 2:58 pm to Odysseus32
quote:
Occupation:Student
quote:Predictable. I remember sophomore year too.
There is no morality. Never has been, never will be.
This post was edited on 9/16/21 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 9/16/21 at 3:07 pm to Korkstand
quote:That depends on your definition of god.
Even god got morality wrong though?
Mine is simply the source of natural phenomena.
And I think you noticed god was not part of my Moses comment.
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