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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:53 am to NC_Tigah
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:53 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Pump your simpleton "America is Saintly, Angelic & Pure" Sunshine up someone else's arse.
I don't think the US is saintly. I don't think any nation is 'saintly.' In an anarchic world, nations compete with one another and do so in ways where there is no easy moral calculus. In a zero-sum world, you having more means that by definition your enemy has less. What you want is peace for peace's sake and want the US to live by some weird set of undefined rules while allowing Russia to live by some other set of standards. That's not the way it works. Russian security concerns cannot supersede the security concerns of their neighbors. The US has had considerable investment in setting up a world in which people, goods and services can move freely. That includes economic and military alliances.
It's naivety dressed up as concern, with no acknowledgement of the downsides of that naivety. What if the negotiated settlement in April was just a dishonest method on the part of the Russians to stabilize themselves after their significant losses, only for them to attack again at some point in the future? That is still the danger of any negotiated settlement, as this situation is going to continue to be a geopolitical fault line for a long time.
The Russians could have had everything they wanted in 2021 and before the invasion in the last minute negotiations. Instead, they negotiated with Macron while continuing with their plan to invade. Somehow, this deception doesn't inform you and we have to constantly hear about what the West did, with not even a nod toward Russian duplicity. Nothing happens in a vacuum and decisions the Russians made themselves also can inform how their enemies behave. If they wanted peace, they could have it tomorrow as well, since they are the ones that invaded. And yet, they don't.
2
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:53 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
Their territorial demands have increased over time. Their initial position was Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea.
Yet their initial attack pattern signaled something else.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 10:55 am to NC_Tigah
quote:yea. everyone knows that applies to russia
Pump your simpleton "America is Saintly, Angelic & Pure" Sunshine up someone else's arse.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:23 am to crazy4lsu
quote:You'd do far better assessing your own positions than guessing naively at those of others. Given your statement, it's sadly evident you haven't the foggiest clue as to my position re: the US, Russia, or Ukraine.
What you want is peace for peace's sake and want the US to live by some weird set of undefined rules while allowing Russia to live by some other set of standards.
quote:You don't say! That would be the same investment, BTW, which we are undercutting rapidly with international confiscatory actions, SWIFT exclusions, and BRIC drivers. You might understand that if you were more interested in constructive discussion than shitposting.
The US has had considerable investment in setting up a world in which people, goods and services can move freely.
quote:Oh Good Lord!
The Russians could have had everything they wanted in 2021 and before the invasion in the last minute negotiations.
According to this forum, the Russians want all of Europe! ... at the very least the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Poland, Finland, and Kazakhstan. WTF do you conjure in your fairytales that Macron ""promised"" to Putin ... all while TeamBiden was leaking Ukraine-to-NATO discussions to Moscow? Jesus you're a naive sucker.
This post was edited on 12/17/23 at 11:24 am
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:24 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
It's naivety dressed up as concern, with no acknowledgement of the downsides of that naivety.
It’s worse than that. It’s brazen sedition dressed up as “intelligent skepticism”.
They hate what America is today, so lizard brain tells them anything against America is good.
Weak-principled, easily manipulated faux intelligentsia.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:34 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
You'd do far better assessing your own positions than guessing naively at those of others. Given your statement, it's sadly evident you haven't the foggiest clue as to my position re: the US, Russia, or Ukraine.
Your position, as stated, is that Russian deception before the war is not a justifiable reason for the West to scuttle talks with Russia in April of 2022. Again, there are two standards here. Not surprising you can’t see it.
quote:
That would be the same investment, BTW, which we are undercutting rapidly with international confiscatory actions, SWIFT exclusions, and BRIC drivers. You might understand that if you were more interested in constructive discussion than shitposting.
Nah, demand for US dollars is steady. BRICS is a compete non-starter because of the geopolitical alignment between India and China.
quote:
WTF do you conjure in your fairytales that Macron ""promised"" to Putin
What? Macron was negotiating but specifically stated he couldn’t promise anything.
quote:
all while TeamBiden was leaking Ukraine-to-NATO discussions to Moscow?
Different factions in the West have different interests.
Russia was offered Ukrainian neutrality with respect to NATO. Why didn’t they take it?
You pretty consistently avoid answering direct questions. Odd…
This post was edited on 12/17/23 at 11:35 am
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:57 am to crazy4lsu
quote:Link to that "stated" position? Do take your time.
Your position, as stated, is that Russian deception before the war is not a justifiable reason for the West to scuttle talks with Russia in April of 2022
My position is we scuttled talks for the stated reason that Putin was not really as powerful as the west had previously imagined, and that we had a chance to "press him."
quote:... and at least one big projector.
there are two standards...
quote:When you understand a little more about money, finance, and economics (and you will when you eventually get some skin in the game) in a few years, raise that point again and we'll discuss it.
Nah, demand for US dollars is steady.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 11:59 am to crazy4lsu
quote:Indeed. When ... exactly ... was that offer extended?
Russia was offered Ukrainian neutrality with respect to NATO.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:Not even remotely true.
You pretty consistently avoid answering direct questions. Odd…
With less shitposting, and a bit more open discussion, you'd have recognized that.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:20 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
My position is we scuttled talks for the stated reason that Putin was not really as powerful as the west had previously imagined, and that we had a chance to "press him."
And that has largely borne out to be true. Russia is in a terrible geopolitical position in the long-term and there is no chance for rapprochement.
quote:
When you understand a little more about money, finance, and economics (and you will when you eventually get some skin in the game) in a few years, raise that point again and we'll discuss it.
What? This isn’t even a cogent answer to anything. We can discuss it now, as the way our political economy is designed means that demand for US dollars for the completion of balance of payments in international trade is essential to both GDP growth as well as the future of US securities, of which the majority is held by US citizens and institutions.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:34 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Indeed. When ... exactly ... was that offer extended?
You should read Stormy’s post, but it was offered in Kozak’s deal in the days around the invasion. In terms of what Macron was offering, you should read his comments after his late Jan/early Feb conversations with Putin, in which French officials suggested the “Finlandization of Ukraine” as well as some very provocative statements about a ‘new security architecture’ for Europe. The Russian readout of some of the calls seemed to reject a more detailed French plan that a French official stated Macron planned on offering, with the statement of this French official dating to the 3rd week of January.
The French readout of the calls of that time specifically stated that Putin outright rejected the notion of any ‘offensive intention,’ which should be remembered given Macron’s statements from last summer.
If you want a more detailed history of Russian duplicity in particular, I could provide it, but I’m skeptical you would actually read it, since you are hellbent on one particular narrative above all others.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:35 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
With less shitposting, and a bit more open discussion, you'd have recognized that.
You still haven’t answered any of the questions.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:48 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:I asked you a very specific question. I'll give you another shot.
You should read Stormy’s post,
When ... exactly ... was that offer extended?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:50 pm to Lima Whiskey
Are you Russians truly that big of sheep? You all believe whatever state TV tells you I assume but I have a very important question. If Putin came to you and told you to suck his dick, would you?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 12:59 pm to LSUPilot07
I remember when this was called a "war discussion" thread.
The current state of this thread tells us all we need to know about how the war is going.
General GOP hasn't posted one of his zoomed in maps in over month.
The current state of this thread tells us all we need to know about how the war is going.
General GOP hasn't posted one of his zoomed in maps in over month.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 1:00 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
When ... exactly ... was that offer extended?
I literally told you in that post. One version has Putin’s aide negotiating and winning that concession in the days around the beginning of the invasion. The other version was the French plan during calls with Putin on the dates I listed.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 1:05 pm to Tiger985
quote:
I remember when this was called a "war discussion" thread.
The current state of this thread tells us all we need to know about how the war is going.
General GOP hasn't posted one of his zoomed in maps in over month.
Why should I post maps? Not much territory is changing ground. And the small Russian gains in the East are not strategically significant.
But if you look back two pages to the bottom of the page, you'll find my remarks on the Estonian plan for Ukraine's victory. Feel free to join in on the discussion of it.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 1:27 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Estonian plan for Ukraine's victory.
LOL.
The one where Estonia says, "Hey American taxpayers, send $130 billion to Ukraine so they can win!"
Hard pass.
Posted on 12/17/23 at 1:40 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
But the fact our hands are dirty as hell along with them, that is on us. We should be better.
Our hands might be dirty, but Russia is filthy from head to toe.
You keep feeding people the notion that Russia and Ukraine were closing in on a peace deal on April 7, only 40 days or so after they launched large attacks from three fronts.
quote:
Russia's top diplomat accused Ukraine of backpedaling on a draft peace deal — a comment that Ukraine dismissed as propaganda. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in a video address that Kyiv was changing demands related to Crimea, among other things. Ukraine's top negotiator noted that Lavrov was not on the negotiating team.
You have consistently picked pro Russian propaganda to make the US and its NATO allies look bad. Why is that?
Posted on 12/17/23 at 1:43 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
quote:Their territorial demands have increased over time. Their initial position was Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea.
Yet their initial attack pattern signaled something else.
Exactly, they came hard after Kiev, Kherson and had eyes on Odessa. They were going for the kill. That was clear from the outset.
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