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Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:20 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
We’re losing ground on this all over the world if you ask me.
I really don’t think we are.
quote:
Not guaranteeing the defense of an entire continent or at the very least forcing them to change their policies to be able to defend themselves is not being isolationist. Either Europe is one of the economic and cultural centers of the globe, in which case they’re more than capable of defending themselves, or they’re not which means they’re not worth defending in the first place.
Well, none of our investments are ‘sunk-cost’ unless we leave. Nothing is free in geopolitics. I don’t see why our defense of Europe is any different.
Look, in geopolitics, you either make the rules and don’t have to abide by them, or you are subject to someone else’s rules. That is the real calculus that history has borne out over and over again. If we suddenly leave Europe, there is no isolationist wonderland waiting for you, nor is there the possibility of a polity developing to your exact desires without massive upheaval. Outside of personal preference, I don’t see an argument for what benefit the US gains from leaving, other than ‘not paying for Europe’s defense.’
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:21 pm to El Segundo Guy
There has always been a push by General officers (most of whose background is SOC/light infantry) and the flyboys (all branches) of downplaying the role of heavy armor in modern combat.
It's the "Combat Arm of Decision" for a reason.
It's the "Combat Arm of Decision" for a reason.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:27 pm to crazy4lsu
ISW Update
quote:
The Kremlin continues to publicly challenge Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin’s claims that Wagner Group forces were solely responsible for capturing Soledar, Donetsk Oblast, on January 12. Russian President Vladimir Putin attributed the success on the frontlines to Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and General Staff plans when responding to a journalist’s question on January 15 regarding Russian advances in Soledar.
quote:
Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov possibly indirectly accused Prigozhin of deliberately exposing the conflict between the Russian MoD and Wagner in the Russian information space. Peskov attempted to dispel reports of an ongoing conflict between Prigozhin and the Russian MoD, stating on January 16 that these reports are “products of information manipulations.”[3] Peskov, however, added that while most of such manipulations come from Russia’s ”enemies,” the Kremlin has ”friends” who also behave in a similar way
quote:
Prigozhin is continuing his efforts to undermine faith in the Russian MoD and in Putin-aligned actors. Prigozhin directly responded to Peskov’s statement in an interview question about the MoD-Prigozhin conflict, stating that he has no reason to not trust Peskov
quote:
NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg stated that the Russo-Ukrainian War is in a “decisive phase” on January 15.[6] Stoltenburg told German news outlet Handelsblatt on January 15 that NATO countries recognize the current situation and must “provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs to win.”
quote:
Stoltenburg dismissed German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s repeated concerns that the Western provision of weapons to Ukraine could cause a nuclear escalation. Stoltenburg stated that “this risk of using nuclear weapons is low” and that countries including China conveyed to the Kremlin that “nuclear weapons must not be used
quote:
A prominent milblogger revived pre-February 2022 discussions of Kremlin intent to return close Putin ally Viktor Medvedchuk to power in Ukraine. Igor Girkin, a former Russian officer and prominent nationalist voice, claimed on January 16 that the Kremlin hopes to place Medvedchuk at the head of an alternative Ukrainian government.[13] Girkin and Kremlin-linked milblogger Sasha Kots critiqued Medvedchuk’s suitability and the feasibility of him ever taking such a position.[14] This conversation resembles prior media speculation of a potential Kremlin plan to install disgraced former Ukrainian dictator Viktor Yanukovych as the leader of Ukraine in early 2022
quote:
The appointment of the Russian Chief of the General Staff, Army General Valery Gerasimov, as theater commander of Russian forces in Ukraine notably did not spark a significant wave of criticism within the Russian nationalist milblogger discourse. Milbloggers largely claimed that Gerasimov’s appointment signifies that the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) is retaking responsibility for the war.[16] The milbloggers connected Gerasimov’s appointment to several ongoing issues including internal MoD tensions; conflict between the MoD and the Wagner Group; and the poor state of the war.[17] Milbloggers adopted a defeatist stance regarding Gerasimov’s appointment, noting that the fate of Gerasimov’s own military career rests on the long-term outcome of the war.[18] Some more critical nationalist voices stated that Gerasimov’s appointment is an example of the Kremlin’s inability to learn from its historic defeats, given that Gerasimov failed to keep occupied territories in northern Ukraine at the start of the war, but such discourse has been limited.[19] Milbloggers have largely expressed hope that Gerasimov will continue to cooperate with his predecessor (now his deputy commander), Commander of the Russian Aerospace Forces Army General Sergey Surovikin and continue missile strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure.[20] The mixed hopeful but apathetic milblogger response may indicate their hopes that the Russian MoD and the Kremlin are beginning to realistically envision the war in Ukraine by introducing a centralized command structure to take charge of the military campaign.
quote:
Key Takeaways
The Kremlin continues to challenge Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin’s claims that only Wagner forces seized Soledar, Donetsk Oblast.
Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov possibly indirectly accused Prigozhin of deliberately exposing the conflict between the Russian MoD and Wagner in the Russian information space.
Prigozhin continued his efforts to undermine faith in the Russian MoD and Putin-aligned actors.
NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg stated that the Russo-Ukrainian War is in a “decisive phase," which does not entail that the war is in its final phase or that Russian forces are planning to employ all resources in impending actions.
A prominent milblogger revived pre-February 2022 discussions of Kremlin intent to return close Putin ally Viktor Medvedchuk to power in Ukraine.
The appointment of Russian Chief of the General Staff, Army General Valery Gerasimov as theater commander of Russian forces in Ukraine notably did not spark a significant wave of criticism within the Russian nationalist milblogger discourse.
Russian forces continued to launch localized assaults to regain lost positions around Svatove and in the Kupyansk direction as Ukrainian forces continued offensive operations around Kreminna.
Russian forces made additional territorial gains north of Bakhmut and may be intensifying attacks south of Bakhmut near Klishchiivka.
Russian forces continued ground attacks near Avdiivka and Donetsk City.
Russian forces continued efforts accumulate manpower in east (left) bank Kherson Oblast and to develop new logistic routes between Russia and southern Ukraine.
Low discipline among Russian forces continues to directly endanger Russian soldiers and limit force effectiveness.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:35 pm to momentoftruth87
quote:
I didn’t name specific users, but I’d assume most combat veterans, like myself, are tired of this war and do not support it.
Most on this thread did serve, including me
Nobody has said we are contributing in any way shape or form to Ukraine
Every update has been sourced and if you choice to believe that or not is up to you, been stated a million times the fog of war is real
Look I may get pissed about Germany being pussies as usual but make no mistake The whole reason many of us support the effort to help Ukraine is to keep our brothers in our military from having to spill blood later
Much better for us if Ukraine spills the blood fighting for their own country
Much of the equipment we are giving them(note I didn’t say all) is outdated by our standards and was already set to be replaced
If I told you under trump that we could spend 6% of the defense budget for a year and with that could destroy Russia’s conventional fighting force by close to 60% and could wreck their economy and their ability to hit with tactical weapons due to lack of money for maintenance, training and targeting also while killing their ability to manipulate the O&G market………
Every one on the PT would be calling him a genius. Look I hate Biden as much or more than you and I fricking despise that we were used as political pawns while in, but last I checked no American blood is being spilled. This is simply supporting a country that was invaded.
With all that said…Germans are still pushiest who are scared of the Russians and will remain sucking Russian dick until they allow leopard tanks. frick them.
This post was edited on 1/16/23 at 8:48 pm
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:38 pm to lsu777
Amen.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:39 pm to momentoftruth87
quote:
Never said that. What I was inferring, is all the cheering and support for Ukraine. A corrupt country that is weakening ours. Also if you’ve been in combat the reporters in Kyiv have no idea what is going on. But go ahead and trust, buy, and debate with propaganda in favor of one over another.
Bro nobody here likes that corruption but Russia is worse. Much worse and has potential to really affect us and our geopolitical influence and our economy.
And why would a reporter that is not getting reports first hand from the front lines know what’s going on?
And go ahead and show us the false report since you know so much.
And how is supporting a country that was invaded by modern day ussr weakening ours?
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:39 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Look, in geopolitics, you either make the rules and don’t have to abide by them, or you are subject to someone else’s rules. That is the real calculus that history has borne out over and over again. If we suddenly leave Europe, there is no isolationist wonderland waiting for you, nor is there the possibility of a polity developing to your exact desires without massive upheaval. Outside of personal preference, I don’t see an argument for what benefit the US gains from leaving, other than ‘not paying for Europe’s defense.’
We can’t even make a rule that Europe should buy our energy in return for providing a defense for them against the very country that they do buy energy from. If we’re going to be this hegemonic world superpower that provides for the safety and protection of half the world then we may as well treat Europe like our colonial possession….subjects of the American Empire if you will. I have to listen to European know-it-all diplomats and academics give me their misguided and ignorant opinions on America foreign policy, our health and education systems and our internal politics on a daily basis. As far as I’m concerned one of the conditions of our benevolent protection of Europe should be they have to keep their mouths shut and buy our oil and gas at the very least. Hell, their entire continent is under threat from the Russian bear and they’re still buying gas from them. And I really don’t believe they’ll stick to any of these increases in defense spending once the war in Ukraine finally winds down. They’re just too selfish and shortsighted for that. Or maybe they’re the smart ones and are taking America for a bunch of suckers.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 8:54 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
I have to listen to European know-it-all diplomats and academics give me their misguided and ignorant opinions on America foreign policy, our health and education systems and our internal politics on a daily basis.
You do?
quote:
If we’re going to be this hegemonic world superpower that provides for the safety and protection of half the world then we may as well treat Europe like our colonial possession….subjects of the American Empire if you will.
Well, this is the trick. There’s a great documentary about FDR and the industrialists, and there was a great quote from some British historian about how what separated America was the ability to convince people of a profit-making enterprise in a way that achieved geopolitical goals. What if the trick is that we make everyone a whole lot more money by not treating Europe as a captive market? What if the Intra-market competition is the net benefit? There are all sorts of externalities you aren’t considering, but I fear you are elevating your own feelings and projections onto Europe without doing much analysis. I think many Americans are frustrated as they realize America’s political economy isn’t oriented around them, but in truth it never was. The obsession with the cost of things is leading us to a bad road, because we can use that excuse to inappropriately fund things of value, over and over and over. But regardless, none of this amounts to a good reason why we should abandon Europe.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:05 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
You do?
Yes. I work in West Africa over half the year and live in the “diplomatic quarter” if that’s what you want to call it with all the American and European diplomats and UN and NGO workers so I socialize with them and go to their silly dinner parties while they all suck each other off about this or that University they attended. It’s exhausting but the chicks are all sloots so I nod my head and smile at their unfunny jokes and ramblings about how important their lame arse jobs are.
quote:
Well, this is the trick. There’s a great documentary about FDR and the industrialists, and there was a great quote from some British historian about how what separated America was the ability to convince people of a profit-making enterprise in a way that achieved geopolitical goals. What if the trick is that we make everyone a whole lot more money by not treating Europe as a captive market? What if the Intra-market competition is the net benefit? There are all sorts of externalities you aren’t considering, but I fear you are elevating your own feelings and projections onto Europe without doing much analysis. I think many Americans are frustrated as they realize America’s political economy isn’t oriented around them, but in truth it never was. The obsession with the cost of things is leading us to a bad road, because we can use that excuse to inappropriately fund things of value, over and over and over. But regardless, none of this amounts to a good reason why we should abandon Europe.
I’ll think on this and reply tomorrow. I’ve been at this shite too long at this point.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:05 pm to momentoftruth87
quote:
I’d assume most combat veterans, like myself, are tired of this war and do not support it.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:11 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
Preach on brotha. I work with Europeans often. It's not easy
This post was edited on 1/16/23 at 9:12 pm
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:16 pm to momentoftruth87
quote:
I didn’t name specific users, but I’d assume most combat veterans, like myself, are tired of this war and do not support it.
I’m a combat veteran, and I think you’re a goddamn simple minded moron.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:17 pm to momentoftruth87
quote:
Umm if ppl haven’t been in combat they don’t need to be searching the web and thinking their opinion is strong on this war.
The last 3 commanders in chief of the greatest military in history not only didn’t have combat experience but never served at all…
quote:
I’ll stick with my argument that combat veterans have a lot different thoughts than someone who never deployed to a combat zone.
Agree, as a non-combat veteran nor a veteran at all, but it doesn’t nullify the opinion/thoughts of those who actually put in the work trying to understand the dynamics at a higher level.
ETA “nor a veteran at all” to not misrepresent veteran status, or in my case lack thereof.
This post was edited on 1/16/23 at 9:23 pm
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:25 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
So we should abandon Europe to the Russians because some low level government workers are douche bags?
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:33 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
You are fricking high man The vast vast majority of military sent to Ukraine wasn’t sitting in some junk yard waiting to be disposed of. Our M777’s and HIMARS are all still relatively new systems. the Scan Eagle Switchblade drones are all off the shelf new. The 10K Javelin missiles weren’t just waiting to be disposed of. You literally just make shite up all the time. Like the 3 times in this thread you’ve claimed HIMARS was some old system from the Cold War.
HIMARS first production models 1996 but specs in early 1980's. M877 is mid 1980's British weapon later Americanized in the 1990's. We lots of rounds of 155mm ammo scheduled to be DESTROYED this year and following years.
This is still transferring asset values not spending money. Some people just have obviously not had a business with equipment on their books.
This post was edited on 1/16/23 at 9:58 pm
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:38 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Yes. I work in West Africa over half the year and live in the “diplomatic quarter” if that’s what you want to call it with all the American and European diplomats and UN and NGO workers so I socialize with them and go to their silly dinner parties while they all suck each other off about this or that University they attended. It’s exhausting but the chicks are all sloots so I nod my head and smile at their unfunny jokes and ramblings about how important their lame arse jobs are.
Robert Oppenheimer used to needle the European physicists he worked with about how much better America was than Europe. He tried to poison his teacher at Cambridge with an apple (his letters were unclear on how it was poisoned). What I’m saying is poison those figs. It’s good that there are sloots there though.
quote:
I’ll think on this and reply tomorrow. I’ve been at this shite too long at this point.
All good brother.
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:45 pm to OGtigerfan87
quote:
we should abandon Europe to the Russians because some low level government workers are douche bags?
That is not even close to what anyone said, can you mfers read??? He said they need to start contributing and doing as told when it comes to military and security or they don’t get our protection. Simple as that
They are being Russian cock suckers cause they are bought and paid for by the kremlin, same with hungry…frick that. Play ball or go play with the Russians.
Put pressure on them and they will play ball, that’s all we are saying, not like they gonna pay for their own security cause then they might have to gov who their precious social programs
Posted on 1/16/23 at 9:54 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
I’m sorry, but we have enough people here on welfare, we don’t need Europe to add to the list. We don’t need them as a colony. Since WWII we have done very well the way things are now.
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