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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 7/27/22 at 8:44 am to Chromdome35
Posted on 7/27/22 at 8:44 am to Chromdome35
It could be due to construction flaws especially if built during the Soviet Era. However, I don't see the overuse of rebar which was common to create a market for crappy Soviet steel production increases
1
Posted on 7/27/22 at 8:53 am to Obtuse1
quote:
This is a very atypical bridge at least in the US.
As narrow as that bridge is, it would seem like any direct hit by artillery would put it out of service at least temporarily. The real trick is sending a direct hit.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:04 am to CitizenK
quote:
It could be due to construction flaws especially if built during the Soviet Era. However, I don't see the overuse of rebar which was common to create a market for crappy Soviet steel production increases
One thing I did notice on the youtube video. The bridge is a post tension slab design. That means that there are steel cables in the concrete that are tightened during construction to give the bridge additional strength. If you look closely at the video (starting at around 0:27 seconds), you'll see that these cable have been sheered away. This significantly decreases the strength of the bridge and will likely never be usable by heavy equipment or even cars again.
This post was edited on 7/27/22 at 9:07 am
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:12 am to Lonnie Utah
quote:
The bridge is a post tension slab design.
That is an excellent catch. From the previous attack pictures, I had it pegged as pre-stressed. As soon as I read your post I remembered seeing the smooth cables but was looking at the damage and the significance never registered in my brain.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:13 am to Obtuse1
quote:
That is an excellent catch.
I'm not an engineer, but but brother has his MS in structures. I've hung around engineers most of my adult working life.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:37 am to Obtuse1
That is similar to the Frisco bridge in Memphis crossing the Mississippi River. It is an old railroad bridge.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:45 am to Shreveportolewarskul
quote:
ope they do well too but they are hardly the aggrieved party. I would have expected the US to invade Mexico had similar issues been present. And we have done so with Canada and Mexico several times each.
This is so stupid it hurts.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 9:56 am to AbuTheMonkey
quote:
WASHINGTON—The Biden administration, prompted by Kyiv’s recent successes in blunting Russia’s offensive in Ukraine, has begun reversing course on potentially providing advanced weapons like fighter aircraft that it earlier said could escalate the conflict with Moscow.
On Friday, the White House announced that the Pentagon was exploring ways to provide Ukraine with jet fighters, following a U.S. Air Force statement that it is looking at training Ukrainian pilots to defend their airspace with NATO-compatible aircraft. North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies in Central Europe are already moving toward providing Soviet-era jet fighters to Ukraine.
WSJ
Posted on 7/27/22 at 10:45 am to Abstract Queso Dip
quote:
That is similar to the Frisco bridge in Memphis crossing the Mississippi River. It is an old railroad bridge.
I wasn't familiar with it so I looked at some pictures. It appears to be a cantilevered truss bridge. All the various type of riveted steel truss bridges share a pretty similar aesthetic and the only people that care about the details are people building them or people like me (at one time) that might be task to blow them up.
From a combat engineer's POV the important thing is knowing which structural members are in tension and which are in compression. If you want to take a bridge down you want to attack the members that are in tension which uses the forces that are already trying to pull the bridge apart in your favor, they also tend to be more delicate. An example of that is a suspension bridge like the Golden Gate. You don't attack the towers you attack the main cables.
Here is an example of two very similar looking truss bridges but you would exploit them in very different ways.
The top bridge is a Pratt truss on the bottom is a Howe truss they look remarkably similar but are very different. On the Pratt bridge the verticals are in compression and the horizontals are in tension, on the Howe truss it is the opposite as the verticals are in tension and the horizontals in compression. So while you would attack the horizontals on a Pratt you would attack the verticals on the Howe.
Sorry for the thread jack I just haven't had an opportunity to talk about bridges for 15 years since I got out of the reserves.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 10:57 am to Obtuse1
Nah I think it is very relevant to the discussion. One of my favorite memories from middle school was building a toothpick bridge. We learned about the different types of bridges and support structures etc. Of course the kid whose dad was a CE won the competition.
Hope the good guys doing the targeting have the proper intel on the best spot to cause the most damage.
Hope the good guys doing the targeting have the proper intel on the best spot to cause the most damage.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 11:04 am to Shreveportolewarskul
Wait are you trying to insinuate that 2/3 of our military aircraft in the US aren’t airworthy? Sorry to disappoint you but that’s complete bullshite.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 11:05 am to cypher
One thing that I've found remarkable from the beginning is how porous the Russian occupation is. They don't put any effort into suppressing this information, and in some cases they announce it themselves. I don't know who these guys are in the video, but if I'm the Russian chain of command, I have some security around critical infrastructure and nobody gets near it without authorization.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 11:20 am to Obtuse1
quote:
Sorry for the thread jack I just haven't had an opportunity to talk about bridges for 15 years since I got out of the reserves.
It’s relevant to the war and certainly more relevant than a lot of other ancillary discussion imo. Plus you taught me something fwiw
Posted on 7/27/22 at 11:22 am to Obtuse1
quote:
Sorry for the thread jack I just haven't had an opportunity to talk about bridges for 15 years since I got out of the reserves.
You should just continue writing about bridges from what I'm guessing is a combat engineer's perspective. These posts have been fantastic.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 11:53 am to crazy4lsu
One HIMARS strike to the middle of that skinny railway bridge puts it out of action completely. It wouldn’t take near the amount of strikes to disable it as the other bridge they hit.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 12:26 pm to LSUPilot07
They're apparently trying to temporarily disable the bridges so they can repair them later.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 1:37 pm to CitizenK
quote:
Russia is already effectively a vassal state of China and is now a shiithole nation for at least a generation
Aside from a couple of high points historically, Russia has always been a shithole country. They can't grow an economy and compete with the west. Minimal exports. Now exporting energy, but the elites are stealing everything coming out of the ground.
The immediate conflict was always going to hinge on whether Ukraine could mount a successful and prolonged counter offensive. That marks a turning point in the war. Hopefully at Kherson...
Absent a successful counter offensive at some point in time, it's hard to fathom western aid holding together through all of the political machinations and election cycles. We outspent the Soviets and won the Cold War, but we're no longer in that political environment.
I don't think U.S. aid, and by extension that of NATO is ad infinitum.
That's not to say what security would look like on the other side. Russia toppled the Afghan government with a quick coup. But you need support of the populace to hold onto a country. Russia couldn't project the force necessary into the Afghan provinces to overcome that.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 2:04 pm to LSUPilot07
quote:
One HIMARS strike to the middle of that skinny railway bridge puts it out of action completely.
From Ukrainian News Agency:
Two missiles hit the railway bridge across the Dnieper in Kherson region. This bridge is near the damaged Antonivskyi Bridge.
The head of the "military-civil administration" of Kherson region Volodymyr Saldo appointed by the invaders announced this, Russian TASS reports.
He confirmed that the Antonivskyi Bridge was damaged by Ukrainian shelling.
"A little upstream there is a railway bridge, two missiles hit there too,” he said.
Posted on 7/27/22 at 3:32 pm to cypher
quote:
Two missiles hit the railway bridge across the Dnieper in Kherson region.
That being the case the chances of it having to be considered compromised are nearing 100%. There just isn't anywhere on that bridge and rocket or arty shell could hit that wouldn't cause damage that brought its load capacity into serious question.
Part of the challenge in the area of the Dnipro river in the southern portion of the country is the paucity of bridges. The road and rail bridges hit are the last ones before the Black Sea.
The next one upstream is one neither side would want to mess with outside of scorched earth since it is a road and rail bridge over a hydroelectric dam. This is in Nova Kakhovka. If the Ukes did incapacitate the rail bridge north of Kherson this is the only other rail bridge over the Dnipro in Russian-controlled territory.
Next upstream is another road bridge over another hydroelectric dam nearly 170 miles away at Zaporizhzhia. This dam bridge differs because it has a section of road over the water not part of the dam that could safely be targeted. There are 2 other road bridges in this area.
Then you are at the city of Dnipro another 40 miles up which has 5 or 6 bridges. This is about 60 miles inside Ukranian-held territory now.
Those two bridges in Kherson they hit has an incredible effect on the ability of Russia to move men and machines to the west. The Russians only have one rail/road bridge over the river in their control, shame it is a dam with a huge reservoir behind it...
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