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Message
re: Karen Read murder trial - Not guilty on main - guilty of OUI(DUI) only
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:32 pm to IT_Dawg
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:32 pm to IT_Dawg
quote:
So what the hell did she amend to make it more clear
She read the same jury instructions but gave each juror a copy of the verdict form before she did so.
1
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:33 pm to KosmoCramer
They are back in court now..
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:35 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:
They can be hung on OUI and still make factual determinations on everything else, it would then become a OUI retrial.
This is what Wiseguy said a few pages back, which contradicts what you are saying…I don’t even think Bev knows what the hell the jury is allowed to do
quote:
The verdict sheet looks confusing but it actually follows MA law. In MA, if there are lesser included charges (as we have here), the jury can only find guilty of a specific count or the lesser included charge therein, of not guilty of the main count and all lesser included charges. They are not allowed to say she is not guilty of the main charge in count two and then hang on a lesser included.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:39 pm to IT_Dawg
This is absurd.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:39 pm to IT_Dawg
quote:
I don’t even think Bev knows what the hell the jury is allowed to do
She would rather look like an idiot than do what someone else suggest, that makes more sense.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:41 pm to OweO
She’s setting up the hung jury.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:42 pm to IT_Dawg
Yes, in Massachusetts, a jury can return a verdict of not guilty on some counts while remaining hung on lesser included offenses. This situation arises because each count or charge in a case is considered independently, and a jury's inability to reach a unanimous verdict on one count does not necessarily affect their ability to decide others.
Key Points: Independent Verdicts: Massachusetts law allows juries to render partial verdicts under Massachusetts Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 27(b), which permits the court to accept verdicts on counts where the jury has reached agreement, even if they are deadlocked on others. For example, a jury might acquit on a greater offense (e.g., first-degree murder) but be unable to agree on a lesser included offense (e.g., manslaughter).
Lesser Included Offenses: Lesser included offenses are those that contain some, but not all, elements of the greater offense. In Massachusetts, juries are often instructed to consider the greater charge first and, if they find the defendant not guilty, to then consider the lesser included offense. If the jury is hung on the lesser charge, they can report a not guilty verdict on the greater charge and leave the lesser unresolved.Case Law Support: In Commonwealth v. Floyd (1985), the Massachusetts Appeals Court recognized that partial verdicts are permissible when a jury agrees on some counts but not others, including lesser included offenses. The court may accept the verdicts on resolved counts and declare a mistrial on the hung counts, allowing the prosecution to decide whether to retry the unresolved charges.
Judicial Discretion: The trial judge has discretion to poll the jury or inquire about their deliberations to confirm which counts have been decided and which remain deadlocked, as supported by Commonwealth v. Hebert (1979) and general trial practices.
Practical Implications:If a jury returns a not guilty verdict on some counts but is hung on lesser included offenses, the judge may accept the not guilty verdicts, which are final. The hung counts could lead to a mistrial on those specific charges, and the prosecution may choose to retry them or dismiss them, depending on the case.Double jeopardy prevents retrying the counts where a not guilty verdict was reached but does not bar retrying the hung lesser included offenses.
Key Points: Independent Verdicts: Massachusetts law allows juries to render partial verdicts under Massachusetts Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 27(b), which permits the court to accept verdicts on counts where the jury has reached agreement, even if they are deadlocked on others. For example, a jury might acquit on a greater offense (e.g., first-degree murder) but be unable to agree on a lesser included offense (e.g., manslaughter).
Lesser Included Offenses: Lesser included offenses are those that contain some, but not all, elements of the greater offense. In Massachusetts, juries are often instructed to consider the greater charge first and, if they find the defendant not guilty, to then consider the lesser included offense. If the jury is hung on the lesser charge, they can report a not guilty verdict on the greater charge and leave the lesser unresolved.Case Law Support: In Commonwealth v. Floyd (1985), the Massachusetts Appeals Court recognized that partial verdicts are permissible when a jury agrees on some counts but not others, including lesser included offenses. The court may accept the verdicts on resolved counts and declare a mistrial on the hung counts, allowing the prosecution to decide whether to retry the unresolved charges.
Judicial Discretion: The trial judge has discretion to poll the jury or inquire about their deliberations to confirm which counts have been decided and which remain deadlocked, as supported by Commonwealth v. Hebert (1979) and general trial practices.
Practical Implications:If a jury returns a not guilty verdict on some counts but is hung on lesser included offenses, the judge may accept the not guilty verdicts, which are final. The hung counts could lead to a mistrial on those specific charges, and the prosecution may choose to retry them or dismiss them, depending on the case.Double jeopardy prevents retrying the counts where a not guilty verdict was reached but does not bar retrying the hung lesser included offenses.
This post was edited on 6/17/25 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:47 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
She’s setting up the hung jury.
What do you mean
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:47 pm to KosmoCramer
Andrea is live and clowning on the CW and Bev.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:48 pm to Gris Gris
This is the exact reason I said earlier that AJ wanted Not Guilty next to each charge on Count 2.
Then the jury could have said Not Guilty on every charge on count 2 except OUI.
Now the way the slip is they cant, and theoretically they can recharge her on all of count 2 Manslaughter even though its obvious the jury feels she didn't hit him.
Then the jury could have said Not Guilty on every charge on count 2 except OUI.
Now the way the slip is they cant, and theoretically they can recharge her on all of count 2 Manslaughter even though its obvious the jury feels she didn't hit him.
This post was edited on 6/17/25 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 6/17/25 at 12:58 pm to Saintsisit
Bev is about to lie to the jury saying she can't answer a question that she can.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:00 pm to Saintsisit
I don't feel dumb now for not understanding the verdict slip,.lol
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:03 pm to TigerBait1971
This is just craziness.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:07 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:This is what I had in mind.
The trial judge has discretion to poll the jury or inquire about their deliberations to confirm which counts have been decided and which remain deadlocked, as supported by Commonwealth v. Hebert (1979) and general trial practices.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:08 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
Court TV just said the other jurors on the first jury that they interviewed had a unanimous verdict of NG
That isn’t true at all. First trial foreman even said (more or less verbatim) “some people in our room think she’s guilty and some don’t.” Not sure why Court TV would’ve said they were unanimous. That’s why it was a HJ bc they couldn’t agree.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:10 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:
KosmoCramer
GOAT explanation
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:13 pm to idlewatcher
quote:
That isn’t true at all. First trial foreman even said (more or less verbatim) “some people in our room think she’s guilty and some don’t.” Not sure why Court TV would’ve said they were unanimous. That’s why it was a HJ bc they couldn’t agree.
Vinnie interviewed some jurors, he said. They were unanimous on the main charge, but couldn't agree on the others and didn't understand the verdict form. They didn't end up giving a verdict on anything, even those charges they agreed on.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:14 pm to Gris Gris
If they were in agreement why was it hung?
Found it
Found it
quote:
Paramedic Ronald Estanislao says jurors were unanimous in finding Karen Read was not guilty of second-degree murder and leaving the scene of a crash resulting in death, but couldn't reach consensus on the manslaughter count
This post was edited on 6/17/25 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:20 pm to idlewatcher
quote:
Found it
quote:
Paramedic Ronald Estanislao says jurors were unanimous in finding Karen Read was not guilty of second-degree murder and leaving the scene of a crash resulting in death, but couldn't reach consensus on the manslaughter count
Right, so they didn't give a verdict on anything though they could have done so. That's my understanding.
Posted on 6/17/25 at 1:25 pm to Gris Gris
So from what I understand the jury is confused about the 3rd charge right? And she (bev) told them she can't answer their question?
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