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re: Jazz Fest crowd control

Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:17 pm to
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
112578 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:17 pm to
Yeh I realize some love it. It has just gotten to be too much for me. I will just have to plan smarter
Posted by bee Rye
New orleans
Member since Jan 2006
34624 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:24 pm to
quote:

You had Van Morrison to draw people to the Gentilly stage at the same time. Tomorrow you have a much less popular Nick Jonas so I would expect about the same size crowd at the Acura stage. I guess less people may go on a Sunday
pearl jam is a great live band. Rhcp is an awful live band. While the acts playing on other stages do have some effect, if all things were equal, pearl jam is outdrawing rhcp every single time
Posted by saderade
America's City
Member since Jul 2005
26501 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:38 pm to
quote:

pearl jam is a great live band. Rhcp is an awful live band. While the acts playing on other stages do have some effect, if all things were equal, pearl jam is outdrawing rhcp every single time

I do agree that Pearl Jam is more popular but have to disagree they are better live. I have seen both multiple times and Eddie Vedder is a shell of his former self.
Posted by Napoleon
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
74883 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:40 pm to
I don't like jazz fest because it's too enclosed. FQF is the only large fest I really enjoy as you can easily get away from the crowds.
I haven't been to Jazz Fest since 2002.
Posted by bee Rye
New orleans
Member since Jan 2006
34624 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:41 pm to
Be prepared to be disappointed tomorrow. Rhcp has been mailing in live shows for the past 15 years
Posted by brass2mouth
NOLA
Member since Jul 2007
20735 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:48 pm to
I literally got to my my seats which were about 100yds from the PJ stage in like 10 minutes after leaving Mystikal. The crowd today wasn't shite compared to Elton.
This post was edited on 4/23/16 at 10:49 pm
Posted by shutterspeed
MS Gulf Coast
Member since May 2007
73770 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 10:59 pm to
quote:

I actually happen to have done a slightly creepy amount of research into the phenomenon of 'crowd crush' and 'crowd collapse' recently, and can probably shed some light here. First I'll say these are not stampedes, but some background info is needed. IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER NOT READING THIS.

Basically when people start to move in very high density crowds, each individual physically doesn't have enough space around them to behave like a normal person who acts based on decisions anymore, but rather the entire crowd starts moving like a fluid, forced forward by the pressure of the people walking forwards behind them. We're talking densities of 5+ people per square meter (you can roughly equate 4 people per square meter to being in a tightly packed crowd but still being able to move 360 degrees, just brushing up on people on all 4 sides. At about 5-6 people/meter2 you start to lose that freedom of movement). The crowd starts to literally behave by the laws of fluid dynamics, and can experience shockwaves that ripple up and back through the mass of people when a push comes from any given direction... anyone who's been in a moshpit knows what I'm talking about.

These crowd densities aren't dangerous in themselves until you start reaching more than 8+ people/meter2 , however starting at about 5-6 they become extremely risky to facilitate movement in for two major reasons: 1) the risk of hitting a choke point and 2) the risk of someone falling over.

The first one results in what is called 'crowd crush'. This is where you have an extremely large and high density crowd, typical for those seen at events like the Hajj, moving in one direction in a confined space. This can be as wide as a city block or as narrow as a hallway. The crowd will be moving in its desired direction, but as soon as it hits a choke point, such as a blocked entrance, a sharp turn, a single open doorway, or even another high density crowd coming from the opposite direction, the people at the front face a serious problem. They are not merely walking anymore, they are being carried in the crowd fluid and could not stop if they tried (and would probably fall over). Survivors of crushes have described the experience like you're being carried by a river of people. The people at the very front of the crowd (who are not at dangerous densities) will make it through the choke point, unless it's a blocked entrance of course, but the high density crowd inevitably follows, carried by force. If the choke point is too narrow for the entire crowd to fit through, people literally just plug it up and are unable to squeeze through the gap anymore, and are being evermore crushed by the force of people behind them. For a morbid but good example of this, watch the video of the Station Nightclub fire that happened in 2001 2003 (NSFW/NSFL). For those who don't want to watch, basically what happened is a fire broke out in a nightclub, and nobody really bothered to run for the emergency exits (plus some other things but another post entirely) but instead all pushed for the front door. When the crowd density trying to leave the club out of the double doors became too great, the people got stuck and knocked over in the doorway, and bodies kept piling on top of more bodies from the flow of people behind until there was a helpless 6ft high pile of people with their heads and arms sticking out the front door packed too tightly for anyone on the outside to wedge them free.


Posted by shutterspeed
MS Gulf Coast
Member since May 2007
73770 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 11:00 pm to
quote:

Here's the fricked up part though: people do not die from being 'trampled' as if everyone is wildly running around and stepping on each other, in fact there's literally no way that's possible because people couldn't be running around in high density crowds even if they wanted to. What they die from is compressive asphyxiation (yes, suffocation by crushing) from the sheer force of all of the weight of bodies being stacked on top of them. In the worst of choke points, a completely blocked exit, people can be crushed standing up because they breathe out and simply cannot overcome the pressure of all of the people around them to breathe back in. That happens at densities of about 12+ p/sqm. 'Crowd pressure' has been known to collapse walls, bend steel guard rails, and of course kill a shitload of people.

The next scenario, and in my opinion the much more horrifying one, is crowd collapse. This happens when a high density crowd is moving and someone falls over. If you can imagine yourself in a fluid-like crowd, the pressure of the person behind you pushes you forward, and in turn you exert the pressure on the person in front of you, facilitating the crowd's (the fluid's) movement. If suddenly the person in front of you falls, they are no longer there for you to 'lean on' (to exert pressure on to), and guess what? You fall too. And the person behind you. And the person behind them, and anyone who tries to help someone else up, all just being pushed against their will into the new wall of bodies in front of them. The crowd collapses behind the original hole. Aaaaand now you have a choke point, just made of bodies. Surprisingly even here the main cause of death is almost always compressive asphyxia rather than trampling, as the pressure just gets too great when you have 2000lb of flesh on top of you. The crowd doesn't even have to be moving very fast for this to happen (or even can be stationary in the case of a grandstand collapse ), and is especially dangerous when the people are moving down a steep or slippery slope.

Here's the kicker: in both of these scenarios the death tolls are so high because the people in the back of the crowd, propagating the crowd force, are almost always too far away to know what's going on at the crush point. These sorts of crowds are extremely noisy and essentially impossible to stick your head up and over to get a better view, this combined with the fact that the back of crowds are usually at safe densities and people have no reason to panic and just keep walking means that the people at the front have no choice but to be crushed. Or in the case of a fire, where people sometimes are aware of what's happening in the front, they will simply keep pushing because it's either that or wait to die, worsening the crush at the front. Hundreds upon hundreds of people can be screaming for help and for people to stop or turn back... the ones who can hear them are already too stuck in the flow to do anything, and the ones who can do something can't hear.

So now the Hajj. This annual event is basically something any Muslim (who is able) has to do in their lifetime, and involves traveling to Mecca and surrounding areas over the span of four days to perform some religious rituals and visitations etc. The super short timespan of this event and the insane amount of people it draws means there's a huge amount of high density crowd movement, and one of the most notorious areas is a city called Mina, by which a particular ritual called the Stoning of the Devil is performed. Basically people need to throw rocks at a particular set of pillars, and so as you can imagine there's a giant potential for dangerously packed crowds when you have to move so many people to such a small location. This particular one happened when one road was closed in Mina and people didn't follow the detour or something (the news isn't very reliable because these events become so political for some reason), and basically two extreme density crowds coming from opposite directions collided in a single intersection, causing the pileup you're reading about above. There was also extreme heat on that day; you'll get people dropping like flies once densities start to get crush-worthy. There has been a crush or a collapse at the Hajj that's killed hundreds of people roughly every two years for the past couple of decades.

In fact, the global rate of crushes has increased exponentially in the past ~50 years or so as cities have become dense and urbanization is commonplace, this is a real problem that you may encounter in your own lifetime. If you do realize you're in a crowd that's heading towards a crush, unfortunately it probably means it's too late for you at that point. However, if you're actually serious about avoiding one of the most horrible deaths you could imagine, whenever you start to notice you're in a crowd that is reaching dangerous densities (4+) and is starting to behave like a fluid, you can work to get out of it. The key is the shockwaves you'll feel travel through everyone as the pressure pushing y'all starts to outpace how fast you can physically move. These are the sorts of crowds that if someone steps on your foot you'll probably lose your shoe because your foot will simply be carried out of it by the movement of the crowd. When you feel a shockwave, absolutely do not fight it. That's one of the quickest ways to fall over. What you should instead do is let it carry you wherever it needs to, and then immediately start moving sideways, and diagonally backwards if that's possible, avoid falling over at all costs though. You simply want to GET OUT of that crowd at that point (even if it's headed somewhere you needed to be) however possible. People may start dying. And you may be one of them.

EDIT: If you do every find yourself in the worst-case scenario and are knocked over, attempt to fall in a rigid fetal position (arms over your face and chest) to attempt to make room for your lungs to breathe. One man survived the Station Fire (NSFW/NSFL) by doing this and having a small supply of fresh air, protected from the fire by a man-made heat shield.
Posted by Lithium
Member since Dec 2004
64385 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 11:22 pm to
Acura stage wasn't bad but there were some old pissed off women at the Van Morrison set that were pissed if you walked in front of them
Posted by Statestreet
Gueydan
Member since Sep 2008
13901 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 11:37 pm to
I pray for rain for jazz fest
Posted by lsupride87
Member since Dec 2007
112578 posts
Posted on 4/23/16 at 11:41 pm to
I agree it wasn't as bad as Elton. That was out of control. I still just thought it was far too packed for my liking compared to prior years. Apprantly other people didn't mind. I guess I will chalk it up to it just isn't my thing anymore and I will have to adjust. Bummer
This post was edited on 4/23/16 at 11:42 pm
Posted by tigertrueAU
Canyon Lake Texas
Member since Oct 2009
1306 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 12:05 am to
I was at Elton John last year and can agree it was a cluster frick. That being said I attempted to get to the stage, seating area 20min before he went on. Major mistake on my part. I knew better. Normally I go straight in and put chairs down and walk around whenever but make it back to my chair for the band going on before the final act. Last year I got greedy and paid dearly for it. I "watched" the show from the track behind a vendor truck.
Today however I got in line at 10am, gates opened at 11am. Made my way straight to gentilly stage, put chairs down. Watched the first act there then explored to get food and drink. Made it back for big Sam then left again half way through Tab Benoit. Caught part of a show at lagniappe stage in n the grandstands, enjoyed some AC and indoor restrooms and left at 3:30 to go back to chairs at gentilly. Got there 5 min before Nathaniel Rateliff and the Night Sweats went on. Btw the were freaking amazing. AMAZING!!! Then an hour after them Van Morrison came on. My wife left between Nate and Van and made it back with drinks in 30 min.
Point being. Yes the crowds are HUGE but if you are smart and plan things out and know when to go and when to hunker down you can have a great time. My dad is 64 and goes ever year with me and he paces himself and stays hydrated and loves it. Get there early. Put chairs down. Explore! Then get back well in advance of the closing act. Not hard.
Posted by eitek1
Member since Jun 2011
2907 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 12:23 am to
I left acura at 5:50 and walked directly to the Gentilly stage to listen to Van Morrison for a few songs. We left and walked back to see Pearl Jam. We walked on the track to the far side to exit 6. We never saw a wall of people at all it wasn't hard to move around. I even stopped to use the Porta pot because there wasn't anyone there waiting. Granted I wasn't near the stage but I didn't have a problem.
This post was edited on 4/24/16 at 12:25 am
Posted by Mr. Hangover
New Orleans
Member since Sep 2003
34932 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 12:58 am to
Stupid question, but where at and what time is jazz fest tomorrow??

TIA
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106059 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 1:10 am to
quote:

shutterspeed


This is why during lightning delays in a stadium, I take my chances with the weather rather than seek refuge in the concourses.
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
76148 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 1:34 am to
quote:

The crowd today wasn't shite compared to Elton.
This.

Was it crowded? Sure, but I had no problems Saturday. Van Morrison still can bring it onstage.

Almost done for the night.

Posted by skinny domino
sebr
Member since Feb 2007
14536 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 2:45 am to
quote:

I hate being cramped up next to trashy, sweaty people
you must love Sept, Oct and the first two weeks in Nov - in Tiger Stadium.
Posted by tigerpimpbot
Chairman of the Pool Board
Member since Nov 2011
69238 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 5:07 am to
Frick you pussies. Back in 20 aught one, they ran out of beer when Dave Mathews played his shittiest acoustic set ever. When Lenny Kravitz came out to help him jam, the crowd almost didn't wake up.
Posted by MadDoggyStyle
Member since Feb 2012
3857 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 6:20 am to
The smaller venues at JF are much more enjoyable than the Acura stage. I saw the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac a few years ago but could only take 20 minutes or so of the drunks and trash pushing and shoving.
Posted by TitleistProV1X
Member since Nov 2015
3657 posts
Posted on 4/24/16 at 7:37 am to
Yea after Elton last year I'll never go back to Jazzfest on the weekend. Thursday's and even Friday's are where it's at.
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