re: Branch Davidians in Waco

Janet Reno

/thread

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Escalation of force is not always the right answer.

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agreed...seems like after koresh lied to them about releasing people,the feds got extremely angry then the tanks showed up.it def. should have been handled better.

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FBI could have easily waited until he left the compound and then arrested him.

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If they would have went thru local law enforcement, the sheriff spoke to him 2 days before in the grocery store

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but I believe it came out that the agent who infiltrated the group was discovered as an undercover fed. It's said he left the compound after he knows that they know.. goes back and says that Koresh knows something is coming and is claiming to be prepared for it. It was also confirmed prior to and again at this time that the Davidians do in fact have a real deal arsenal to fight with and will fight...do the Feds regroup ?

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This is indeed what was said in the show. Also, the person that the FBI/ATF asked was a mailman delivering mail who just happened to be part of the cult. And I'm sorry but how do you get so pulled into tis that a husband says "sure, take my wife and father a child"??? Sick as sick can be.

The revival of this topic means BLM will need to share the spotlight with BDLM now.
Anyway, the people really calling the shots on the Branch Davidian situation were all the way in D.C.
The LEOs at the crime scene did the best they could.

I haven’t posted in one of these threads, there have been several, because I know people will argue based on what they have seen on TV or read on the Internet. Much of which is false and/or slanted for political purposes. I happen to know and have worked with multiple guys involved in the raid and we discussed it extensively. Believe me when I say I am not coming here to wholesale defend how it went down but to give some honest truths.

Without typing out the entire story on my phone I will say this:

1. Much has been made of the “arrest Koresh in town” thing. That was considered but the case agents felt that grabbing him off the compound would most assuredly alert the cult and guarantee a conflict. So it was decided to try to both arrest him and serve the search warrant at the same time. Everyone glosses over the fact that there was a search warrant and they were going out there one way or the other.

2. The undercover agent had been in and around the compound for weeks leading up to the raid. It was standard practice that all weapons were locked in the second story armory while the men worked outside away from the main building daily. The tactical plan called for the infamous cattle trailers to pull onto the property between the men in the fields and the main building thus cutting off their access to the weapons.

3. That is where the frick up happened. The massing of over 100 federal tactical agents along with the assorted support personnel had everyone in Waco knowing that something was up. It’s a small community and the challenges to keep operational security were underestimated. The fact that they got lost enroute and famously asked the mail man who was a Branch Davidian is but one example. They also contracted with the local ambulance service and one of the dispatchers, who was also a Davidian, leaked information to Koresh as well. Given that surprise was a key element of the tactical plan, they really screwed that up.

4. The element of surprise was lost before the ATF teams ever left their staging area. This was well known and a fatal flaw in the mission. One of the lead supervisors ran into the high school gym where the tactical teams were staging and yelled out “Hurry up! Let’s go! They know we are coming!” He later lied his arse off to Congress on national TV and denied saying this although multiple people heard him say it. He, more than anyone, bears responsibility. When the undercover agent left the compound just before the raid, they were handing out weapons to the men and Koresh shook his hand and said something about it had been good to know him,. Remember that the Davidians were a doomsday cult and Koresh craved a confrontation with the government. The undercover went back and called the supervisors to tell them to call off the raid. Instead they went forward for political and career reasons. This was a big deal to headquarters with the intent to raise the profile of the ATF (they were a Bureau at the time and wanted to become an Agency - a funding and manpower distinction) so people made their decision based on that. The undercover agent broke down and was seen crying and screaming at the on scene commanders telling them not to go.

5. As far as the final FBI assault goes. They inherited a basically no win situation. I can’t stand those guys but there wasn’t much they could do. They put up with weeks of Koresh reading Bible quotes and promising to surrender only to break his promises. They gave him numerous chances and even put him on the radio to transmit his psycho garbage. People had been escaping the compound throughout the standoff but that eventually stopped and then he quit interacting with the negotiators. They knew things had reached a point where something was going to happen and all the psych people said it was going to be a mass homicide of the kids followed by suicides. So the decision was made to force the situation. I have to agree with that. The thought was to gas the building and force people outside where they would scatter and be hopefully captured. Everyone raises hell over the appearance of using tanks but what isn’t discussed is that they were raining down on the vehicles with full auto 7.62 fire every time the compound was approached. Little known fact, they also had tons of grenades, remember the explosions during the fire, and would throw those out the windows too. To insert the gas they had to use tanks.

Well that turned out much longer than I intended. If someone has a legit question I will try to answer it. If someone wants to be a dick and say I don’t know what I am talking about I am just going to ignore that.

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Just imagine what chip and jo could have done with that compound? Shiplap everywhere

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I'll bet they will have Harp reclaim some of the burned materials.

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I understand what you're saying and agree in a sense, but I also don't feel alot of sympathy for the untimely death of child abusers.

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A lot of the women and children that they were ostensibly intervening to save perished in the fire as well, though.

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No one should support the government slaughter of Americans.

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should we support loons banging 12 year olds?

We had this thread a while back, but I watched it. While the feds fricked up, I think the blame ultimately falls on Koresh.

There wasn't any "good guys" in this situation.