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Why is Avatar not considered to be 'woke' when it's a critique of colonialism etc?
Posted on 1/4/23 at 8:54 am
Posted on 1/4/23 at 8:54 am
This is a discussion I've been having with someone who likes to use the phrase 'go woke, go broke. '
According to him and others that I've had discussions with, Avatar is not woke.
But I would argue:
1) Avatar features a relationship between a non-human and a human. That's more than an interracial relationship, that's an inter-species relationship and people regularly label interracial relationships in movies as being woke. In the first film, Neytiri even interacts with the human body of Jake.
2) It portrays natives as overwhelmingly good while it portrays the white men/humans in the film as bad. It's clear cut that the film never expresses much about the bad about natives while it overwhelmingly shows that humans are evil/bad.
Despite having arranged marriages (in the first film) and having a culture that treats all humans with hostility, the movie portrays Navi as being able to do no wrong while the humans/'white man' are portrayed as evil, often stupid and entirely without reason.
3) Avatar 2 shows a potential relationship between Spider who is a human in human form and Sigourney Weaver's character. They have a relationship that seems to be more than just friends/sister/brother. That's another example of an inter-species relationship.
4) It heavily critiques resource extraction in both films. It then attempts to sort of critique capitalism with the RDA organization being a stand in for multinational corporations who extract resources from the world.
5) The Navi are a stand-in for indigenous tribes. Cameron is critiquing colonialism where the humans are the colonists where the Navi are 'innocent indigenous tribes. '
James Cameron doesn't even make it a secret that the Avatar film themes have critiques running through them.
I would argue that by any definition that the anti-woke crowd uses to describe films, Avatar is a woke film series. And yet it's on track to gross $2 billion, hence disproving the 'go woke, go broke' saying.
Avatar isn't even that subtle either. It's just more subtle than the other films people call woke.
According to him and others that I've had discussions with, Avatar is not woke.
But I would argue:
1) Avatar features a relationship between a non-human and a human. That's more than an interracial relationship, that's an inter-species relationship and people regularly label interracial relationships in movies as being woke. In the first film, Neytiri even interacts with the human body of Jake.
2) It portrays natives as overwhelmingly good while it portrays the white men/humans in the film as bad. It's clear cut that the film never expresses much about the bad about natives while it overwhelmingly shows that humans are evil/bad.
Despite having arranged marriages (in the first film) and having a culture that treats all humans with hostility, the movie portrays Navi as being able to do no wrong while the humans/'white man' are portrayed as evil, often stupid and entirely without reason.
3) Avatar 2 shows a potential relationship between Spider who is a human in human form and Sigourney Weaver's character. They have a relationship that seems to be more than just friends/sister/brother. That's another example of an inter-species relationship.
4) It heavily critiques resource extraction in both films. It then attempts to sort of critique capitalism with the RDA organization being a stand in for multinational corporations who extract resources from the world.
5) The Navi are a stand-in for indigenous tribes. Cameron is critiquing colonialism where the humans are the colonists where the Navi are 'innocent indigenous tribes. '
James Cameron doesn't even make it a secret that the Avatar film themes have critiques running through them.
I would argue that by any definition that the anti-woke crowd uses to describe films, Avatar is a woke film series. And yet it's on track to gross $2 billion, hence disproving the 'go woke, go broke' saying.
Avatar isn't even that subtle either. It's just more subtle than the other films people call woke.
This post was edited on 1/4/23 at 8:58 am
19
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:00 am to CAPEX
quote:
would argue that by any definition that the anti-woke crowd uses to describe films, Avatar is a woke film series. And yet it's on track to gross $2 billion, hence disproving the 'go woke, go broke' saying.
Why are you scared to post under your real handle and resort to an alter to troll?
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:05 am to CAPEX
Avatar was almost a scene-by-scene remake of Pocahontas.
The strong message of family in the 2nd movie is a plus, at least.
The strong message of family in the 2nd movie is a plus, at least.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:10 am to CAPEX
Avatar is grandfathered in because it's based on Ferngully and the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs (which go back to height of colonialism).
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:26 am to CAPEX
quote:
1) Avatar features a relationship between a non-human and a human. That's more than an interracial relationship, that's an inter-species relationship and people regularly label interracial relationships in movies as being woke. In the first film, Neytiri even interacts with the human body of Jake.
Your very first argument is cringy and ridiculous. Interracial relationships are like inter-species relationships? Just a dumb comparison all around. The only saving grace of this argument is that Zoe Saldana, in any color, is fine.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:31 am to CAPEX
I hated the first film instantaneously for the exact reason of being woke…good guys are blue natives, bad guys are white American monsters 
it was the least subtle thing ever
it was the least subtle thing ever 
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:38 am to CAPEX
quote:
Why is Avatar not considered to be 'woke' when it's a critique of colonialism etc?
Because sometimes there are themes that transcend the current culture/narrative.
I'd consider myself somewhere between libertarian and conservative politically, and even I don't mind themes about protecting nature and your home from invaders.
While it may have left leaning themes, I wouldn't say it beats you over the head with them like most stuff nowadays. If that were the case, the fatherhood theme of the Way of Water wouldn't have happened.
This post was edited on 1/4/23 at 9:41 am
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:38 am to CAPEX
Of course Avatar is woke.
It’s also dumb. Maybe that hides the wokeness.
It’s also dumb. Maybe that hides the wokeness.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:43 am to Saint Alfonzo
quote:
Interracial relationships are like inter-species relationships? Just a dumb comparison all around. The only saving grace of this argument is that Zoe Saldana, in any color, is fine.
That's not my only argument.
The movie essentially portrays humans, the white people, as being evil while ignoring that the Navi have arranged marriages and do some pretty messed up things. The Navi can do no wrong in the movie even when they're being incredibly racist themselves (Neytiri was about to shoot Jake for being human in the first film when she got a message from EYWA).
Posted on 1/4/23 at 9:50 am to JetsetNuggs
quote:
Because sometimes there are themes that transcend the current culture/narrative.
I just enjoy any sci fi movie/interplanetary movie these days that isn't big scary monster against humans (literally the last 2 or 3 in the Alien franchise come to mind).
I enjoy seeing world building, the random species, all that.
I remember liking Prometheus but hating the last act. I also remember being pumped for the follow up Covenant only to be severely disappointed as well. Instead of seeing and learning more about the Engineers and their backstory, the creep droid kills off the entire species quickly.
The rest of the film we get more alien parasites bursting out of humans and getting bigger and smarter etc etc
Anyway, the plot in Avatar isn't anything new, but I thouroughly enjoy seeing life on other planets, if that makes sense.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 10:00 am to CAPEX
SPOILERS:
Its a movie about blue aliens so I am not sure how they could do this any other way. its only "Woke" if its forced for no reason.
Not true. They show the water kids being total assholes to the tree kids. They brought the daredevil kid beyond the reef and left him for dead. They also show the water people being a complete dick to that one whale thing over what turned out to be a false rumor.
They also said that the tree people outside of their family were basically racist towards Spider for being human. So no, the aliens were all good benevolent beings.
And the humans were hunting these aliens to extinction while destroying their land to profit from the resources. What good parts about these actions did they leave out?
Ok which human chick should Spider have gone after?
Also Spider and the weird chick were the worst part of the movie. So much bad acting and dumb shite in that whole storyline.
Again, they are destroying this world and killing these people. How is that supposed to be shown any other way?
Are you insinuating that colonizers didn't mistreat the native tribes?
I am willing to bet anyone who criticizes these films based on the points you laid out are the same people that are mad the confederate statues are being removed.
Either you want history to be told and portrayed accurately or you want to pretend the bad stuff didn't happen and make period pieces with minority royals despite it being inaccurate to the time, you don't get to have both.
The reason this isn't Woke is because its based on real history that really happened.
quote:
1) Avatar features a relationship between a non-human and a human. That's more than an interracial relationship, that's an inter-species relationship and people regularly label interracial relationships in movies as being woke. In the first film, Neytiri even interacts with the human body of Jake.
Its a movie about blue aliens so I am not sure how they could do this any other way. its only "Woke" if its forced for no reason.
quote:
2) It portrays natives as overwhelmingly good while it portrays the white men/humans in the film as bad. It's clear cut that the film never expresses much about the bad about natives while it overwhelmingly shows that humans are evil/bad.
Despite having arranged marriages (in the first film) and having a culture that treats all humans with hostility, the movie portrays Navi as being able to do no wrong while the humans/'white man' are portrayed as evil, often stupid and entirely without reason.
Not true. They show the water kids being total assholes to the tree kids. They brought the daredevil kid beyond the reef and left him for dead. They also show the water people being a complete dick to that one whale thing over what turned out to be a false rumor.
They also said that the tree people outside of their family were basically racist towards Spider for being human. So no, the aliens were all good benevolent beings.
And the humans were hunting these aliens to extinction while destroying their land to profit from the resources. What good parts about these actions did they leave out?
quote:
3) Avatar 2 shows a potential relationship between Spider who is a human in human form and Sigourney Weaver's character. They have a relationship that seems to be more than just friends/sister/brother. That's another example of an inter-species relationship.
Ok which human chick should Spider have gone after?
Also Spider and the weird chick were the worst part of the movie. So much bad acting and dumb shite in that whole storyline.
quote:
4) It heavily critiques resource extraction in both films. It then attempts to sort of critique capitalism with the RDA organization being a stand in for multinational corporations who extract resources from the world.
Again, they are destroying this world and killing these people. How is that supposed to be shown any other way?
quote:
5) The Navi are a stand-in for indigenous tribes. Cameron is critiquing colonialism where the humans are the colonists where the Navi are 'innocent indigenous tribes. '
Are you insinuating that colonizers didn't mistreat the native tribes?
I am willing to bet anyone who criticizes these films based on the points you laid out are the same people that are mad the confederate statues are being removed.
Either you want history to be told and portrayed accurately or you want to pretend the bad stuff didn't happen and make period pieces with minority royals despite it being inaccurate to the time, you don't get to have both.
The reason this isn't Woke is because its based on real history that really happened.
This post was edited on 1/4/23 at 10:10 am
Posted on 1/4/23 at 10:05 am to CAPEX
quote:
That's not my only argument.
The movie essentially portrays humans, the white people, as being evil while ignoring that the Navi have arranged marriages and do some pretty messed up things. The Navi can do no wrong in the movie even when they're being incredibly racist themselves (Neytiri was about to shoot Jake for being human in the first film when she got a message from EYWA).
I didn't get any further because your first argument is so absurd I figured the rest was more of the same.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 10:12 am to Bert Macklin FBI
quote:
No true. They show the water kids being total assholes to the tree kids. They brought the daredevil kid beyond the reef and left him for dead. They also show the water people being a complete dick to that one whale thing over what turned out to be a false rumor.
And the humans were hunting these aliens to extinction while destroying their land to profit from the resources. What good parts about these actions did they leave out?
They also show Spider horrified at Neytiri's savagery
Posted on 1/4/23 at 10:28 am to CAPEX
A movie that promotes the nuclear family and strong patriarchy disqualifies it from being woke.
Yes it Has a huge environmental message, but there is no point whatsoever that the movie wags it’s finger at the audience and treats it’s audience as the bad guys. It’s cowboys and Indians in space. Hell if this is woke then so is something like Small Soldiers (underrated)
Yes it Has a huge environmental message, but there is no point whatsoever that the movie wags it’s finger at the audience and treats it’s audience as the bad guys. It’s cowboys and Indians in space. Hell if this is woke then so is something like Small Soldiers (underrated)
Posted on 1/4/23 at 10:32 am to CAPEX
quote:
he movie essentially portrays humans, the white people, as being evil
What I found funny about both films is that in his zeal to make all the whites evil, he has no POC in his films except the ones CGIed in blue. So you have a lot of whites, a lot of blues, but no browns.
Also, I think it is just as racist to say only whites can be geniuses, masterminds, owners, CEOs of business with unlimited funds. Can a black person not be rich or devious or run a multi billion dollar corporation?
Posted on 1/4/23 at 11:30 am to pevetohead
quote:
Yes it Has a huge environmental message
I thought the entire message of the plot was smearing a certain culture's obsession with rhino horns and dolphin fins for fertility use
It was blatantly obvious the more I think about it.
I bet not many on here have seen the documentaries about killin dolphins, whales, rhinos for a tiny amount of their actual bodies
Posted on 1/4/23 at 11:37 am to CAPEX
I watched the first one and thought it's message was woke. I don't care to see the 2nd one.
It is as predictable as it is boring.
It is as predictable as it is boring.
This post was edited on 1/4/23 at 11:39 am
Posted on 1/4/23 at 11:49 am to YumYum Sauce
quote:
I thought the entire message of the plot was smearing a certain culture's obsession with rhino horns and dolphin fins for fertility use
I think you half got it and half went off in some different direction.
The film clearly has strong anti-whaling, anti-wasteful hunting, even anti-capitalist vibes to it. But the film also at multiple times does the opposite of criticizing alternative medicine. Hence the scene with Kiri having a seizure and the western medicine doing nothing, then the Na'Vi come in with their needles and rubs and she pops right up.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 12:00 pm to CAPEX
Avatar isn't really a movie. It's a ride. It reminds me of what video arcades had to do to stay in business during the rise of consoles in the late 80's and 90's. It's a technological spectacle, appreciated not for its story but for its visuals. That's why whole families got to see it, many of them multiple times.
Also, the tickets are way more expensive because of the glasses, which helps a lot with box office numbers.
Also, the tickets are way more expensive because of the glasses, which helps a lot with box office numbers.
Posted on 1/4/23 at 12:07 pm to CAPEX
quote:
This is a discussion I've been having with someone who likes to use the phrase 'go woke, go broke. '
According to him and others that I've had discussions with, Avatar is not woke.
If you are having this discussion with someone IRL, why do you want to discuss it here?
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