re: The Case Against Adnan Syed - HBO-

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I think a big reason for the conviction was the mistrial. The jurors that were polled all said they were leaning towards acquittal, and, if I'm not mistaken, Jay was finished testifying by the time the mistrial was granted. Urick and Jay had time to prepare for Gutierrez's strategy the 2nd time, and I'd guess that's why he made her look so bad. Some of the clips of his testimony are cringeworthy with the way Gutierrez acts towards Jay.

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Agreed. It certainly felt like she didn't put any extra effort into the 2nd trial. Kind of felt like she was going through the motions with the extra workload.

Adnan himself said he felt she did a good job.

She clearly was aggressive in her cross examinations, something that doesn't always play well with a jury, but certainly not ineffective assistance of counsel, as aggressive questioning is commonplace if not ever present and just as often blows up a state's case.


For as grating as she sounds on tape, it could have felt different sitting in the room. I've seen some absolutely insufferable attorneys win over juries, so I don't buy into the irritating voice nonsense. And Serial is picking a few moments to show out of a six week trial. Just more clever production to raise eyebrows imo.


That said, the real sticking point is the fact that she was in the early stages of MS? I believe, and not long after the trial she accepted disbarrment amid multiple complaints about her performance (Adnan did not file a complaint with the Bar and his case was not reviewed).



That, combined with her failure to contact the potential, yet imo not convincing or all that relevant, alibi witness gives plenty of ammo for one to argue her performance was prejudicially ineffective.


She died due to complications from the disease just a few years later, which is why we don't get her account to defend herself.



By all accounts she was a fierce advocate in her day, but the timing of her career ending suddenly not long after has been a big point of attack in his appeals and post conviction proceedings


ETA: As for the new "evidence" there really isn't much. We have some new accounts and new arguments, but most of what the audience finds so compelling may not even be admissible, and just more about how well they present their narrative, which they wouldn't be able to do in the same way even if a new trial has been granted.

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Adnan himself said he felt she did a good job.

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I feel like this says a lot. He praised her pretty well and serial certainly didnt give that part much runtime.

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She clearly was aggressive in her cross examinations, something that doesn't always play well with a jury, but certainly not ineffective assistance of counsel, as aggressive questioning is commonplace if not ever present and just as often blows up a state's case.


For as grating as she sounds on tape, it could have felt different sitting in the room. I've seen some absolutely insufferable attorneys win over juries, so I don't buy into the irritating voice nonsense. And Serial is picking a few moments to show out of a six week trial. Just more clever production to raise eyebrows imo.

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So I pretty early on in the podcast and by the end felt like Adnan did it, based on a number of things he himself said. But if I'm watching a show like Dateline (I'm 32, I guess I'm at an age now where i can admit that i love that show), one of the most frustrating things to me is when a detective uses the "that's not how I or other people would have reacted or said" reasoning. Bc who cares how you would react, is every body supposed to react you? But, on the other hand, I dont think it's fair to say the attorney didnt do her job just based off the podcast/show. You head a lot more from Adnan than you do clips from the attorney.

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She died due to complications from the disease just a few years later

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Yikes, didnt know that, or I missed it.

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That, combined with her failure to contact the potential, yet imo not convincing or all that relevant, alibi witness gives plenty of ammo for one to argue her performance was prejudicially ineffective.

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The girl that saw him in the library? The family didn't even acknowledge her, how would she have known? Unless you interview everybody in the school. Or is it somebody else I'm missing remembering?

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Very subjective. Good job at what?

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Being a lawyer, based off the word of the guy she was representing.

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Additionally, if he is innocent, she objectively didn’t do a good job

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To do a good job you have to win the trail? So every person who's innocent and is convicted, that means their lawyer didnt do a good job at representing them?

Oh, he’s guilty..

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Watched the first episode of the HBO series this weekend. Did anyone else find it extremely odd and creepy that Don pursued Hae's friend(forget her name, Debbie?) soon after the murder and trial?

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yes

I listened to the undisclosed podcast with Susan Simpson and man she is 1,000 MPH in real life too like in the podcast .

But they’re doing a good job of really showing there’s a ton of doubt with jays story and the phone records stuff

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Watched the first episode of the HBO series this weekend. Did anyone else find it extremely odd and creepy that Don pursued Hae's friend(forget her name, Debbie?) soon after the murder and trial?

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Granted, I didn’t listen to the podcast so I don’t know all of the details but dude seemed like a creep show himself.

I also find it weird they don’t have any physical evidence linking Jay or Adnan to Hae’s body.

It's been a while since I listened to Serial, so forgive me if I'm lost on the timeline, but did they ever spend time on the location of the murder allegedly being the Best Buy parking lot in the middle of the afternoon in a pretty large city? I would imagine that to be a pretty busy parking lot. I understand it supposedly happened inside the car, but still seems like it would be hard for not a single bystander to notice a huge commotion and then a body being moved into a trunk (although he could've gone somewhere else to do this if the timeline permitted). Of course this doesn't prove it didn't happen, but I just find it strange that's been accepted as fact because Jay claims Adnan told him that. Was he supposedly in Hae's car at this time and then Jay came to get him and they moved the body to Adnan's trunk? Just trying to make sense of how this supposedly happened without anybody seeing them.

ETA - If it was supposedly pre-meditated then it seems bizarre to pick a busy parking lot. Which makes me think it either wasn't pre-meditated, or didn't happen like we've been told

Also, count me in the crowd that doesn't think it's that strange for him to not remember where he was for that 1-2 hours. He had track practice every day after school with some time to kill in between, right? Usually it's not enough time to do much of anything besides homework or dicking around with friends, none of which is particularly memorable days or weeks later. Especially if there's some slight variance in what you do every day for months. I understand he got a phone call from the police that day, but were they grilling him for alibis that day, or just asking if he heard from Hae? I would expect to remember the phone call, but not necessarily to remember the minutiae of the day if there wasn't any reason for you to think it was relevant at the time. Plus, this is back before everybody had cell phones and social media, so it wasn't that crazy for someone to not be heard from for a day. By the time the police called him she was only unaccounted for for a few hours, right? I don't think I would have been freaking out, especially if they weren't dating anymore. Obviously that doesn't mean Adnan would react the same way I think I would, but I don't think his foggy memory is that concerning, and as others have said, you can argue he would have had an alibi prepared ahead of time if he was guilty and knew he'd be questioned. Just speculating..

FTR I lean toward he is guilty (mostly because it's hard to pin it on anybody else), but I enjoy arguing about this stuff