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re: The American Revolution-Ken Burns

Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:08 am to
Posted by VoxDawg
Glory, Glory
Member since Sep 2012
77591 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:08 am to
Ditto. I can separate the quality of the performances from the personal politics of the actors.
Posted by Twenty 49
Shreveport
Member since Jun 2014
21337 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:32 am to
You wrote that the "Great Law of Peace of the Iroquois Confederacy ... would therefore have been unknown to the Framers of the Constitution."

I asked AI if the US founding fathers knew about the Iroquois Confederacy. It said they did, and "Historians have argued" that it "influenced" the framers' ideas about creating a federal union of states.

You then apparently asked AI if "the Framers of the U.S. Constitution were directly inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy (or its Great Law of Peace) when drafting the document." It said probably not. It did not say that it was unknown to the founders.

Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:44 am to
quote:

I asked AI if the US founding fathers knew about the Iroquois Confederacy. It said they did, and "Historians have argued" that it "influenced" the framers' ideas about creating a federal union of states.


Of course the Founders knew about the Iroquois Confederacy as it existed right next door to the Colonies. However, this idea that it "influenced" them at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 is historically dubious at best. Yes, some historians have tried to argue that, but they are in the minority whose views hadn't gained traction until Ken Burns latched onto them for this documentary series.

The fact of the matter is, the Great Law of Peace was an oral tradition of the Haudenosaunee. There is no record of it ever being written down into English until the late-19th/early-20th centuries. They (the Framers) were aware of the Iroquois Confederacy's federal structure and some customs through treaties and diplomacy, but there is zero evidence to suggest any Framer ever read, heard recited, or referenced the actual Great Law of Peace or its specific provisions.

Posted by tgrfan87
Oswego, IL
Member since Nov 2010
564 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:52 am to
quote:

I've been enjoying this one a lot. I do agree with the poster above in that I wish they went into a little more detail of the actual Declaration of Independence. It seemed like that was glossed over in about ten minutes.


I was thinking the same thing. I am really enjoying this, and do enjoy all of the battle information. I am learning, or in some cases re-learning so much. However, I do wish I knew more about what was going on or went on during the Continental Congress and other meetings outside of the war itself. They do touch on here and there about Franklin in France. I thought there would be more John Adams. That said, I think this is a very good documentary and I am looking forward to the final episode tonight.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37516 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 10:05 am to
Overall, Congress after the Declaration of Independence kind of devolved into a petty shitshow. They took nearly a year and a half to formulate the Articles of Confederation....and would get into some petty squabbles. Really, without Washington and the military action, the Declaration and anything else is superfluous until the end.....I think Burns is kind of alluding to that.

There is a good series on Apple about Franklin and Adams comes in later to it. Adams was a difficult man. The John Adams miniseries on HBO years ago was first rate.....actually Paul Giamatti does the voice over for Adams in this one.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37516 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 10:14 am to
Hell, the tea on tax was a bargain for the colonists. Almost put John Hancock out of business
Posted by Stat M Repairman
Member since Jun 2023
2807 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 10:30 am to
They did the same thing with Townes Van Zandt. Gave him a 3-second mention.
Posted by KiwiHead
Auckland, NZ
Member since Jul 2014
37516 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 10:42 am to
What I found interesting last night was the operations conducted in 1779 in Western New York. Washington opened up a can of whoop arse in the western regions with Sullivan and George Roger's Clark. It was a terror campaign essentially. Sullivan was ordered to lay waste out there. Burn the fields, destroy the food supply, etc. It really was total war out there in the Finger Lakes region west towards the Niagara Region.

Sullivan did not discriminate everyone out there was a target more or less. Lots of freebooters lived in that region and had intermarried with the Indians. They were of mixed loyalties or no real loyalties. It's a campaign that does not get talked about a lot in the history books....if there is mention of the war in the West, it usually consists of Clark's exploits at Kaskasia and Vincennes further west.

George Rogers Clark did not like Indians....at all.....spoke like they did
Posted by tgrfan87
Oswego, IL
Member since Nov 2010
564 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 7:26 pm to
quote:

The John Adams miniseries on HBO years ago was first rate
. I have heard that and plan to watch it soon. I am also interested in the spies and want to read about them and the Swsmp Fox. Any book recommendations?
Posted by VOR
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
68808 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 7:59 pm to
You’re pathetic. It’s a well-researched and produced documentary. It covers all aspects of the war as much as possible.

All of Burns’s work has been historically accurate.
Posted by jlovel7
NOT Louisiana
Member since Aug 2014
24078 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 8:37 pm to
quote:

He described the average tax burden on someone living in England and an American colonist. The tax on the colonist was a tiny percentage of what the England resident would pay. The stamp taxes and such that got the colonists furious were not that burdensome; it was more the principle of their imposition at all.


Sounds like nothing has changed
Posted by OWLFAN86
Erotic Novelist
Member since Jun 2004
196540 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:10 pm to
quote:

All of Burns’s work has been historically accurate.
that patently false

Ty Cobb
Posted by MSUDawg98
Bear the F Down
Member since Jan 2018
13866 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 9:16 pm to
He just couldn't help himself...

Made an obvious attack on Trump and then doubled down by listing the SECOND amendment further down when he was listing him. I guess I'd be a bit irritated too if my meal ticket (CPB) just got whacked. The problem is that many of us supported him through purchasing his releases of books, soundtracks, and videos. I just requested Amazon to cancel delivery of the book tomorrow. I'll get it through other means. frick KEN BURNS!

ETA: This seems to have been the coming out series for Iris De Rode. Easy on the eyes and I can't wait to read her book on the French & American alliance. So much meat was left on the bone when you factor in King Louis losing his head, Napoleon, and Europe's interference with the USA in the first two decades of the 19th century. Burns is pivoting to outright liberal bootlicking over the next three years. I doubt we'll see him covering any other American wars.
This post was edited on 11/21/25 at 9:39 pm
Posted by South Shore Cyclist
Member since Jul 2023
419 posts
Posted on 11/21/25 at 10:18 pm to
Waited six episodes for Burns’ dismissive treatment of Robert Morris, the “Financier of the Revolution.” It’s unlikely that the revolution would have succeeded without Morris’ talented participation, but in Burns’ version, he was a war profiteer, who was mainly in it for himself. Morris expended considerable energy and personal treasure keeping the fledgling country afloat in various executive roles, and found himself and his fortune depleted by the time the conflict ended. It’s a shame that he attempted to recoup what had been hazarded via land speculation, and found himself in debtor’s prison for three years, after his valiant service to the republic. Burns’ historian, whose name I didn’t catch, treats him with contempt.
Posted by MSUDawg98
Bear the F Down
Member since Jan 2018
13866 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 1:45 am to
quote:

Burns’ historian, whose name I didn’t catch
I believe Geoffrey Ward is the writer since he's been credited as the writer of the series and the "companion book". I watched the behind the scenes preview a few weeks ago and it appeared to be written over the past 7-8 years with a few years of post-production. His experts screened the rough cut to "verify authenticity". De Rode's presence is interesting as she hadn't gotten her PhD until 5 years ago. The last 2 nights she had almost as much time as everyone else. So hardly a last minute insertion nor someone who was there from the start like a Stacy Schiff.

Robert Morris is a name i haven't heard in decades (outside of his namesake school's basketball team). I came into the series with an unbiased mindset. Maybe even pro-Burns because of his Baseball and WWII series. I have a feeling that I will notice a ton of biased crap when I watch it a second time.

Looking back he really went heavy on the Indian angle. In many of those cases it was a 18th century FAFO situation. He hammered the pay (maybe they believed in the cause more than money???) and GW/TJ slave ownership. I think you could make a case for this being the first time it was given to the audience with a British prospective. Hell even the French caught strays.
Posted by hogcard1964
Alabama
Member since Jan 2017
19780 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 5:30 am to
quote:

All of Burns’s work has been historically accurate


Really? He literally used pictures of incorrect MLB players while identifying them during his baseball series and misidentifified the El Capitan to represent the Paul Jones steamboat during his Mark Twain special.
Posted by flvelo12
Palm Harbor, Florida
Member since Jan 2012
3607 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 7:49 am to
quote:

Made an obvious attack on Trump and then doubled down by listing the SECOND amendment further down when he was listing.


It was blatantly comically pathetic.

Still enjoyed the series. Never realized the savage brutality of the war.

Without Washington, shudder to think.

To comments on short shifting Declaration of Independence - John Adams series (if I recall) really delved into this. Perhaps Burns bypassed in deference to it already being done (very well also).
Posted by hogcard1964
Alabama
Member since Jan 2017
19780 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 7:55 am to
quote:

Made an obvious attack on Trump and then doubled down by listing the SECOND amendment further down when he was listing him. I guess I'd be a bit irritated too if my meal ticket (CPB) just got whacked. The problem is that many of us supported him through purchasing his releases of books, soundtracks, and videos. I just requested Amazon to cancel delivery of the book tomorrow. I'll get it through other means. frick KEN BURNS!


How did he attack Trump?
Posted by icecreamsnowball
Member since Mar 2025
1344 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 7:59 am to
quote:

and then doubled down by listing the SECOND amendment further down when he was listing him.


Sorry I’m confused. Are you saying he was listing the amendments in the Bill of Rights and didn’t name the Second Amendment second?
Posted by Fewer Kilometers
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2007
38431 posts
Posted on 11/22/25 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

Made an obvious attack on Trump
Please explain.
quote:

doubled down by listing the SECOND amendment further down when he was listing him
THAT'S what you took from this show? The entire thing was an infomercial for the right to bear arms.
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