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re: The American Revolution-Ken Burns
Posted on 11/19/25 at 9:22 pm to OWLFAN86
Posted on 11/19/25 at 9:22 pm to OWLFAN86
Episode 4 was much more battle heavy. Lots of maps and formations and discussing logistics of moving armies and how they were constantly chasing after each other.
I have enjoyed this series thoroughly.
I have enjoyed this series thoroughly.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 4:47 am to jlovel7
I'm still on episode three where Washington was getting decimated in NYC. Even though I know most of what has been said, I'm still really enjoying it.
1. I wish they had spent more time on the vote for independence and the Declaration itself. They didn't mention the drama of Caesar Rodney riding in during a storm to cast Delaware's vote, or NY abstaining. They just kind of wedged it in at the end of episode two and let it be.
2. They've gone to great lengths to talk about the brutality of the Revolution, which most documentaries don't do. Since photography didn't exist then, we don't have the terrible battlefield pictures like from the Civil War. So it always seemed to me we just have very patriotic paintings of battle scenes that are extremely sanitized and it seemed almost like a gentlemen's affair. This has done well to push past that and discuss the horrors of war as they were.
1. I wish they had spent more time on the vote for independence and the Declaration itself. They didn't mention the drama of Caesar Rodney riding in during a storm to cast Delaware's vote, or NY abstaining. They just kind of wedged it in at the end of episode two and let it be.
2. They've gone to great lengths to talk about the brutality of the Revolution, which most documentaries don't do. Since photography didn't exist then, we don't have the terrible battlefield pictures like from the Civil War. So it always seemed to me we just have very patriotic paintings of battle scenes that are extremely sanitized and it seemed almost like a gentlemen's affair. This has done well to push past that and discuss the horrors of war as they were.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 9:24 am to grsharky
quote:
Since photography didn't exist then, we don't have the terrible battlefield pictures like from the Civil War.
I've never seen any actual "battlelfield" action photos of the CW -- only "aftermath" and poses.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 1:30 pm to EphesianArmor
I was referring to the aftermath photos, sorry if I wasn't clear on that. The pictures of the destruction and corpses. I know there is one photo from Antietam that some historians have said was a battle picture, but many others have said it's a picture of soldier's camp fires from afar.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 6:46 pm to grsharky
This has certainly lived up to expectations. I may have to go back and watch his Vietnam series. I'm hoping we will get a "lesser known wars" series by Burns. 1812, Spanish-American, and Korean would be great for a 3 night/6 hour set. I think the ship has sailed but WWI gets shunned and deserves at least 2 nights too. 99% of the population doesn't realize just how much The Great War set the stage for WWII and the second half of the 20th century.
15 minutes to go until Part 5 and my wife declared she's tired of George Washington cockblocking her.
15 minutes to go until Part 5 and my wife declared she's tired of George Washington cockblocking her.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 6:50 pm to MSUDawg98
His next ones are
Thoreau -26
Emancipation to exodus 27
LBJ and the great society - that one is gonna trigger some folks - 28
Thoreau -26
Emancipation to exodus 27
LBJ and the great society - that one is gonna trigger some folks - 28
Posted on 11/20/25 at 8:19 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
In endorsing Barack Obama for the U.S. presidency in December 2007, Burns compared Obama to Abraham Lincoln.
Burns is a Democrat. It is impossible for him to be fully truthful about History.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 8:28 pm to jlovel7
I present to the class the cast list courtesy of the Hollywood reporter
Adam Arkin: James Parker, Ashbel Green, Andrew Hunter, Samuel Shaw, Enoch Anderson, Timothy Dwight and Robert Morris
Tony Beck: Ludwig von Closen
Leon Dische Becker: Johann Friedrich von Bardeleben and Johann Conrad Doehla
Jeremiah Bitsui: Twethorechte and Stockbridge Petitioners
Corbin Bleu: John Joseph Henry, Daniel McCurtin, Nathaniel Bacheller and Isaac Jefferson
Kenneth Branagh: Thomas Gage, Henry Clinton, Joseph Reed, Samuel Graves, Samuel Johnson, Charles Lee, Friedrich Adolf Riedesel and Unidentified
Josh Brolin: George Washington
Bill Camp: Jabez Fitch
Tantoo Cardinal: Mary Jemison and the delegation of Cherokee Women
Josh Charles: John Peters, Joseph Warren and David Ramsay
Martin Czembor: Georg Daniel Flohr
Hugh Dancy: John Burgoyne, Hugh Percy, The Gentleman’s Magazine, London Morning Post, Banastre Tarleton, Charles Gravier de Vergennes and Unidentified
Claire Danes: Abigail Adams
Jeff Daniels: Thomas Jefferson
Keith David: Theodore Roneyn
Hope Davis: Elizabeth Drinker
Marcus Davis-Orrom: John Barker and William Bamford
Bruce Davison: John P. Becker, Charles Inglis and Samuel Webb
Alden Ehrenreich: Joseph Plumb Martin (and Town Meeting of Lebanon, Connecticut)
Craig Ferguson: Lord North, Lord Dunmore John Paul Jones, Scotus Americanus, John Purrier, Martin Hunter and William Harcourt
Morgan Freeman: James Forten
Christian Friedel: Johann Ewald (and Friedrich von Münchausen)
Paul Giamatti: John Adams
Domhnall Gleeson: Roger Lamb, Loftus Cliffe, John MacPherson, John Bowater and William Barton
Amanda Gorman: Phillis Wheatley
Michael Greyeyes: Joseph Brant and Solomon Uhhaunauwaunmut
Jonathan Groff: Erkuries Beatty
Charlotte Hacke: Friederike Riedesel, Hannah Davis, Lucy Knox and Martha Reed
Tom Hanks: Andrew Eliot, Josiah Bartlett, Isaac Bangs, David Griffith, Thomas Jones, Ezra Tilden, Albigence Waldo and Ebenezer Denny
Ethan Hawke: Anthony Wayne and John Andrews
Maya Hawke: Betsy Ambler
Lucas Hedges: Ebenezer Fletcher, John Laurens and Garrett Watts
Josh Hutcherson: James Potter Collins, Thomas Mellen, Jabez Campfield and Unidentified)
LaTanya Richardson Jackson: Elizabeth Freeman and Judith Jackson
Samuel L. Jackson: Boston King, Lemuel Haynes, Caesar Sarter and Flag Resolution
Gene Jones: Landon Carter, Thomas Nelson, Moses Kirkland and Thomas Young
Michael Keaton: Benedict Arnold
Joe Keery: John Greenwood
Joel Kinnaman: Nils Collin, Thomas Hutchinson and Samuel Seabury
Tracy Letts: Elbridge Gerry
Damian Lewis: King George III, Nicholas Cresswell, John André, Bartholomew James and Unidentified Voice
Laura Linney: Sarah Fisher, Sarah Mifflin, Ann Hulton, Eliza Wilkinson and Eliza Lucas Pinckney
Josh Lucas: George Rogers Clark, Virginia Gazette, John Glover and Drury Mathis
Michael Mando: Lafayette
Carolyn McCormick: Hannah Griffitts, Hannah Winthrop, Esther Reed and Unidentified
Reece McCullagh: Patrick Ferguson
Lindsay Mendez: Catharine Macaulay, Mary M Campbell and Unidentified
Tobias Menzies: Lord Cornwallis, Ambrose Serle, William Pitt, Horatio Gates, London Public Advertiser and Unidentified
Olivier Mercier: Cromot du Bourg
Joe Morton: The New England Chronicle, Elisha Bostwick and Elias Dayton
Edward Norton: Benjamin Rush, Philip Vickers Fithian and Philip Schuyler
David Oyelowo: Olaudah Equiano and Sam (witness in Jamaica)
Mandy Patinkin: Benjamin Franklin
Wendell Pierce: William Read
Jon Proudstar: Canasetego, Chainbreaker, Old Smoke and Shawnee Delegate
Matthew Rhys: Thomas Paine (and Edinburgh Amusement)
Liev Schreiber: Nathanael Greene, Samuel Adams and Lewis Beebe
Chaske Spencer: Dragging Canoe and Shingas
Dan Stevens: William Howe and Rochambeau
Meryl Streep: Mercy Otis Warren
Yul Vazquez: Henry Knox and José de Gálvez
Adam Arkin: James Parker, Ashbel Green, Andrew Hunter, Samuel Shaw, Enoch Anderson, Timothy Dwight and Robert Morris
Tony Beck: Ludwig von Closen
Leon Dische Becker: Johann Friedrich von Bardeleben and Johann Conrad Doehla
Jeremiah Bitsui: Twethorechte and Stockbridge Petitioners
Corbin Bleu: John Joseph Henry, Daniel McCurtin, Nathaniel Bacheller and Isaac Jefferson
Kenneth Branagh: Thomas Gage, Henry Clinton, Joseph Reed, Samuel Graves, Samuel Johnson, Charles Lee, Friedrich Adolf Riedesel and Unidentified
Josh Brolin: George Washington
Bill Camp: Jabez Fitch
Tantoo Cardinal: Mary Jemison and the delegation of Cherokee Women
Josh Charles: John Peters, Joseph Warren and David Ramsay
Martin Czembor: Georg Daniel Flohr
Hugh Dancy: John Burgoyne, Hugh Percy, The Gentleman’s Magazine, London Morning Post, Banastre Tarleton, Charles Gravier de Vergennes and Unidentified
Claire Danes: Abigail Adams
Jeff Daniels: Thomas Jefferson
Keith David: Theodore Roneyn
Hope Davis: Elizabeth Drinker
Marcus Davis-Orrom: John Barker and William Bamford
Bruce Davison: John P. Becker, Charles Inglis and Samuel Webb
Alden Ehrenreich: Joseph Plumb Martin (and Town Meeting of Lebanon, Connecticut)
Craig Ferguson: Lord North, Lord Dunmore John Paul Jones, Scotus Americanus, John Purrier, Martin Hunter and William Harcourt
Morgan Freeman: James Forten
Christian Friedel: Johann Ewald (and Friedrich von Münchausen)
Paul Giamatti: John Adams
Domhnall Gleeson: Roger Lamb, Loftus Cliffe, John MacPherson, John Bowater and William Barton
Amanda Gorman: Phillis Wheatley
Michael Greyeyes: Joseph Brant and Solomon Uhhaunauwaunmut
Jonathan Groff: Erkuries Beatty
Charlotte Hacke: Friederike Riedesel, Hannah Davis, Lucy Knox and Martha Reed
Tom Hanks: Andrew Eliot, Josiah Bartlett, Isaac Bangs, David Griffith, Thomas Jones, Ezra Tilden, Albigence Waldo and Ebenezer Denny
Ethan Hawke: Anthony Wayne and John Andrews
Maya Hawke: Betsy Ambler
Lucas Hedges: Ebenezer Fletcher, John Laurens and Garrett Watts
Josh Hutcherson: James Potter Collins, Thomas Mellen, Jabez Campfield and Unidentified)
LaTanya Richardson Jackson: Elizabeth Freeman and Judith Jackson
Samuel L. Jackson: Boston King, Lemuel Haynes, Caesar Sarter and Flag Resolution
Gene Jones: Landon Carter, Thomas Nelson, Moses Kirkland and Thomas Young
Michael Keaton: Benedict Arnold
Joe Keery: John Greenwood
Joel Kinnaman: Nils Collin, Thomas Hutchinson and Samuel Seabury
Tracy Letts: Elbridge Gerry
Damian Lewis: King George III, Nicholas Cresswell, John André, Bartholomew James and Unidentified Voice
Laura Linney: Sarah Fisher, Sarah Mifflin, Ann Hulton, Eliza Wilkinson and Eliza Lucas Pinckney
Josh Lucas: George Rogers Clark, Virginia Gazette, John Glover and Drury Mathis
Michael Mando: Lafayette
Carolyn McCormick: Hannah Griffitts, Hannah Winthrop, Esther Reed and Unidentified
Reece McCullagh: Patrick Ferguson
Lindsay Mendez: Catharine Macaulay, Mary M Campbell and Unidentified
Tobias Menzies: Lord Cornwallis, Ambrose Serle, William Pitt, Horatio Gates, London Public Advertiser and Unidentified
Olivier Mercier: Cromot du Bourg
Joe Morton: The New England Chronicle, Elisha Bostwick and Elias Dayton
Edward Norton: Benjamin Rush, Philip Vickers Fithian and Philip Schuyler
David Oyelowo: Olaudah Equiano and Sam (witness in Jamaica)
Mandy Patinkin: Benjamin Franklin
Wendell Pierce: William Read
Jon Proudstar: Canasetego, Chainbreaker, Old Smoke and Shawnee Delegate
Matthew Rhys: Thomas Paine (and Edinburgh Amusement)
Liev Schreiber: Nathanael Greene, Samuel Adams and Lewis Beebe
Chaske Spencer: Dragging Canoe and Shingas
Dan Stevens: William Howe and Rochambeau
Meryl Streep: Mercy Otis Warren
Yul Vazquez: Henry Knox and José de Gálvez
Posted on 11/20/25 at 9:53 pm to jlovel7
Almost finished with ep 3. It’s good but Burns leans way too heavy into the white guilt over the innocent Indians.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 10:16 pm to VOR
quote:The child that Sally Hemings bore was probably fathered by Jefferson’s brother Randolph, who enjoyed hanging out with the slaves. DNA evidence does not conclusively prove that it was Jefferson’s, only that there is a connection to the Jefferson family.
For example, Jefferson primarily wrote the intro to the Declaration. “We hold these truths…” Yet he owned many slaves and fathered a child with one.
This post was edited on 11/20/25 at 10:28 pm
Posted on 11/20/25 at 10:51 pm to sledgehammer
Do Ken Burns documentaries put anybody else to sleep. I do not at all men they are boring. I love them. But something about the music and filmography relaxes me a little too much.
Posted on 11/20/25 at 11:19 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
I wonder if Burns ever mentions what the tax rate was on the colonists prior to the revolution?
He described the average tax burden on someone living in England and an American colonist. The tax on the colonist was a tiny percentage of what the England resident would pay.
The stamp taxes and such that got the colonists furious were not that burdensome; it was more the principle of their imposition at all.
Posted on 11/21/25 at 5:54 am to sqerty
Thanks squerty!
I couldn't figure out this voice! Of course Inigo Montoya plays Ben Franklin.
quote:
Mandy Patinkin: Benjamin Franklin
I couldn't figure out this voice! Of course Inigo Montoya plays Ben Franklin.
Posted on 11/21/25 at 6:51 am to dgnx6
quote:
It is impossible for him to be fully truthful about History.
The opening 10 minutes of the series implies quite heavily that the Framers borrowed a lot of the ideas they wrote down in the Constitution of the United States from the Great Law of Peace of the Iroquois Confederacy. The only problem with that, however, is the fact that the Law was not translated into English until the 19th Century and would therefore have been unknown to the Framers of the Constitution.
Posted on 11/21/25 at 7:22 am to RollTide1987
quote:
The opening 10 minutes of the series implies quite heavily that the Framers borrowed a lot of the ideas they wrote down in the Constitution of the United States from the Great Law of Peace of the Iroquois Confederacy. The only problem with that, however, is the fact that the Law was not translated into English until the 19th Century and would therefore have been unknown to the Framers of the Constitution.
I asked AI if the US founding fathers knew about the Iroquois Confederacy. It said ...
Yes, the US Founding Fathers were aware of the Iroquois Confederacy and its sophisticated system of government. Many, including Benjamin Franklin and John Adams, admired the Iroquois model for its federal structure, separation of powers, and system of checks and balances, which served as an inspiration for the US Constitution. Franklin even wrote about the Iroquois system, noting their capacity to form a lasting union and using it as an example to argue for the unification of the colonies.
Evidence of awareness and admiration
Benjamin Franklin: As a negotiator and printer of treaties, Franklin had personal interactions with the Iroquois and studied their governance, particularly their federal structure, which he believed could serve as a model for the American colonies.
John Adams: He advised that delegates to the Constitutional Convention study the governments of Native American nations, including the Iroquois, to see how power was divided among legislative, executive, and judicial branches.
Inspiration for the Constitution: Historians have argued that the Iroquois Confederacy, with its system of representing individual nations within a larger confederacy, influenced the framers' ideas about creating a federal union of states.
The Great Law of Peace: The oral constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy is believed to have inspired some aspects of the US Constitution.
Continental Congress: The delegates recognized the Iroquois Confederacy's strategic importance during the Continental Congress.
Posted on 11/21/25 at 7:37 am to Twenty 49
quote:
I asked AI
Funny.
I asked a historian. I wonder which one is correct?
ETA:
Just for shits and giggles, I decided to ask AI as well and got an entirely different answer:
quote:
No, the majority of historians specializing in colonial America and the Founding era do not believe that the Framers of the U.S. Constitution were directly inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy (or its Great Law of Peace) when drafting the document.
While some Framers (particularly Benjamin Franklin) were aware of and admired aspects of the Iroquois system—such as its federal structure uniting distinct nations under a shared council—and while there were documented interactions (e.g., the 1744 Lancaster Treaty Conference where an Onondaga leader urged the colonies to unite, or Franklin's 1754 Albany Plan of Union that echoed confederation ideas), the prevailing scholarly view is that these amounted to indirect or incidental influence at most, not a direct model for the Constitution's specific provisions, powers, or mechanisms.
The consensus among most academic historians is that the Constitution drew primarily from European sources: Enlightenment thinkers (Locke, Montesquieu, Hume), ancient Greco-Roman models, English common law and parliamentary traditions, the colonial charters and state constitutions, and the Framers' own experiences under the Articles of Confederation.
Claims of significant direct Iroquois influence originated largely in the late 20th century (notably in works by scholars such as Bruce Johansen and Donald Grinde in the 1970s–1980s, and amplified around the Constitution's 1987 bicentennial and a 1988 congressional resolution acknowledging Native contributions). Many historians regard these claims as overstated, poorly sourced, or reliant on misreadings of primary evidence (e.g., conflating Franklin's admiration for Iroquois unity with adoption of their governmental structures).
Prominent critics (e.g., Elisabeth Tooker, William Starna, Philip Levy, Charles Mann, and others) have highlighted substantive differences: the Iroquois system emphasized consensus decision-making, matrilineal elements, and sachems selected by clan mothers, whereas the Constitution used majority rule, bicameralism with population-based representation, a single executive presidency, and judicial review—features with clearer European and classical antecedents. No Framer ever explicitly cited the Great Law of Peace (whose first full English translation appeared only in the late 19th century) as a model.
In short, while the Iroquois Confederacy deserves recognition as a sophisticated indigenous political system and may have contributed to broader colonial thinking about federal union, the idea that it directly inspired the Constitution is a minority position in modern scholarship and is often described as a myth or exaggeration.
I have long-found Ken Burns to be a dubious source of good history. While the man does indeed popularize topics that I love and enjoy, he frequently falls for legendary tales that can easily be verified as just that - legends - while reporting them as actual history. Case in point: in his classic documentary series on the Civil War, he falls for the Lost Cause legend that some 7,000 Union soldiers fell at Cold Harbor in less than 30 minutes. Any serious historian of the battle could tell you that that figure is bullshite.
This post was edited on 11/21/25 at 7:56 am
Posted on 11/21/25 at 8:29 am to RollTide1987
I've been enjoying this one a lot. I do agree with the poster above in that I wish they went into a little more detail of the actual Declaration of Independence. It seemed like that was glossed over in about ten minutes.
My main gripe is that I wish this was airing weekly instead of six nights in a row. For some reason it makes it feel sort of overwhelming to me and I feel like I need to try to keep up (which I can't), whereas if it were airing weekly I could watch at my own pace and digest both the episode and the concurrent discussion in the thread about it. I know that's basically how PBS has always done it, but still.
The voice acting is great, and it's cool trying to place who is playing whom based purely on voices.
Also, the maps and depictions of the battles are top notch with the intricate maps and colored arrows and shite. I'm really enjoying that and they do a great job of showing more detail than in past docs.
Also, for whatever reason, I don't find it too woke or "white man bad" at all really (which is a common complaint that I've heard). And with shite like the Indians, we did take their shite for the most part. So it doesn't bother me that it's present in a doc about this time period. Same thing with slavery...that was a real thing so I expect it to be in something like this.
My main gripe is that I wish this was airing weekly instead of six nights in a row. For some reason it makes it feel sort of overwhelming to me and I feel like I need to try to keep up (which I can't), whereas if it were airing weekly I could watch at my own pace and digest both the episode and the concurrent discussion in the thread about it. I know that's basically how PBS has always done it, but still.
The voice acting is great, and it's cool trying to place who is playing whom based purely on voices.
Also, the maps and depictions of the battles are top notch with the intricate maps and colored arrows and shite. I'm really enjoying that and they do a great job of showing more detail than in past docs.
Also, for whatever reason, I don't find it too woke or "white man bad" at all really (which is a common complaint that I've heard). And with shite like the Indians, we did take their shite for the most part. So it doesn't bother me that it's present in a doc about this time period. Same thing with slavery...that was a real thing so I expect it to be in something like this.
This post was edited on 11/21/25 at 9:15 am
Posted on 11/21/25 at 8:47 am to hogcard1964
quote:
I won't attempt to watch this garbage.
I know what a lot of his narrative will already be.
For crying out loud, Burns worked the angle of racism into his documentary about National Parks. He's nothing more than a race hustler.
The horror of him telling a story that actually portrays what actually happened.
I guess there were no natives, or slaves here at all when the war came about, huh?
Posted on 11/21/25 at 8:50 am to VoxDawg
quote:
This is why I don't understand why conservatives can't suck it up and enjoy Hamilton for what it is.
i'm as anti-woke and right wing as it comes and I love Hamilton.
Talent is talent. real recognize real.
Posted on 11/21/25 at 8:58 am to RollTide1987
quote:
I have long-found Ken Burns to be a dubious source of good history. While the man does indeed popularize topics that I love and enjoy, he frequently falls for legendary tales that can easily be verified as just that - legends - while reporting them as actual history. Case in point: in his classic documentary series on the Civil War, he falls for the Lost Cause legend that some 7,000 Union soldiers fell at Cold Harbor in less than 30 minutes. Any serious historian of the battle could tell you that that figure is bullshite.
I like and appreciate Burns, but he does embellish quite a bit.
Not to make this a political shitshow, but I do actually like Daryl Cooper's podcasts. I could take or leave him from a podcaster or interview and his offhand comments (Churchill was a chief villain of WWII,) but he'll base an entire podcasts off of Hitler's journals and official German reviews and notes of his work during WWI as a courier from his superiors.
The majority of "Fear and Loathing in the New Jersalem" is letters , diaries, and articles directly from people involved.
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