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re: Official Falcon and the Winter Soldier Episode 5 Discussion Thread
Posted on 4/18/21 at 1:14 pm to imjustafatkid
Posted on 4/18/21 at 1:14 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:I wouldn't be.quote:
I THINK Sam is going to come out of this and say "we're all people and we all have grievances, but we still have to work together, and some things just aren't acceptable no matter the reason behind it".
That would be reasonable. I'll be shocked if that's what happens.
They handled the US racial stuff a bit clumsily, which is the reason this seems to have touched off a firestorm here.
They also seem to have been a bit vague with the no-borders issue, Karli has been portrayed as sympathetic quite a few times.
But Sam's cut through the smoke with both. After all the "Captain America ain't for the black man" shite, he soaks all that in, and then finally decides to take the Shield up.
If he agreed with that sentiment, he wouldn't have done that.
I still think he's the same guy who told the kid he's Falcon, not "Black Falcon". Hero for everyone.
He also spent time trying to reel Karli in, but has drawn the line at her threats of violence. The show could have done it better, but his approach changes when she threatens his family. It IS a bit ironic at some level, he was willing to talk to her after they blew up that building etc, but 'don't come after my family'. I think, he considers her cause relevant, but her approach unacceptable.
1
Posted on 4/18/21 at 1:28 pm to Scoob
quote:
I THINK Sam is going to come out of this and say "we're all people and we all have grievances, but we still have to work together, and some things just aren't acceptable no matter the reason behind it".
Amen to that. You'll still have a lot of people (especially on this board) that simply can not comprehend that their "side" could ever do anything wrong, but that is more a function of those people than anything else. Self reflection has become an incredibly rare process these days.
I'm enjoying this show. It's definitely not perfect, but that has nothing to do with any racial aspects. I just think some actions are more plot motivated than character motivated - like going along with freeing Zemo, etc. (I love that he was involved, but I don't think Sam would ever go along with that. Heck, I don't think Bucky would have done that either).
I still would like to see both Walker and Bradley pitch in during the final battle to prevent loss of life and destruction. I think that deep down, both are in favor of that.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 2:14 pm to Scoob
quote:
They handled the US racial stuff a bit clumsily, which is the reason this seems to have touched off a firestorm here.
Meh. It's really not that big a deal and hasn't totally ruined the story, but I hope we don't consider "they could have done it worse" to be the standard now.
quote:
The show could have done it better, but his approach changes when she threatens his family. It IS a bit ironic at some level, he was willing to talk to her after they blew up that building etc, but 'don't come after my family'. I think, he considers her cause relevant, but her approach unacceptable.
That whole thing would have played better before she blew up a building. It's hard to understand wanting to negotiate with someone who has gone to that extreme already. Seemed very out of character for Sam. You can talk to her in custody.
This post was edited on 4/18/21 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 4/18/21 at 2:16 pm to Methuselah
quote:
I still would like to see both Walker and Bradley pitch in during the final battle to prevent loss of life and destruction. I think that deep down, both are in favor of that.
If we're supposed to believe Bradley's backstory, I don't see how he could show up at a final battle. Just wouldn't make sense for this fight that absolutely won't affect him personally to be the one he finally decided to get involved in.
This post was edited on 4/18/21 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 4/18/21 at 2:30 pm to Methuselah
quote:Wow... it's suddenly obvious.
I still would like to see both Walker and Bradley pitch in during the final battle to prevent loss of life and destruction. I think that deep down, both are in favor of that.
Bradley and Walker are going to end up partners, Bradley will mentor Walker. This redeems both, and it fits on multiple levels.
1, Sam's whole kick is working with vets struggling to cope with their experiences. Pairing up a couple of bitter, disgruntled Super Soldiers misused by their government is right up that alley.
2, Walker is many things, but not racist. His wife is mixed, his best buddy Lamar was black. He would have zero beef with Isaiah, in fact if he heard his tale he would agree Isaiah got fricked over.
3, Isaiah could look at what happened with Walker and sympathize. They took this soldier, who by all accounts was highly decorated and admired, threw him out there as CA for publicity and without a plan. Didn't even give him the serum so he could compete, just tossed him out there in a no-win situation. And then, when he adapts and DOES his mission (in an ugly fashion), the government tosses him to the curb. And remember, Lamar does get killed by the Flagsmashers, not Walker. Walker was retaliating for that.
And to be clear- Walker was a special forces guy sent after terrorists. The SEAL team sent after Bin Laden did not 'apprehend' him, they killed him and his people.
That was the mission.
Isaiah could see "they did that man wrong".
Isaiah would save Walker from becoming a loose cannon, and Walker would save Isaiah from being 'racist' and bitter. They need each other.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 2:45 pm to Scoob
quote:
Isaiah could see "they did that man wrong".
Isaiah would save Walker from becoming a loose cannon, and Walker would save Isaiah from being 'racist' and bitter. They need each other.
It would definitely make sense for these two to connect over being used by the government, and their stories are similar in that way. Hard to believe they would go this route after the Dark Avengers tease they gave us, but would be a pretty cool way to tie it all together.
It would take a lot of balls, imo, to equate a "bad cop" with a black man right now. I would be pleasantly shocked if that were the case. It would make for a great way to tie it all together. I think it's more likely they're going the Dark Avengers route with Walker though.
This post was edited on 4/18/21 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 4/18/21 at 3:18 pm to Bham4Tide
quote:
Sam being Cap? He is the only obvious choice - a very, very good guy.
Steve chose Sam because he is a good person and believed he would respect all parts of what it means. He also didn't want to put that burden on Bucky.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 4:34 pm to WicKed WayZ
This show seems to be really hashing out why Steve gave Sam the shield, and not Bucky. Sam is a genuinely good man. Before being an avenger, he used to counsel war vets. Even after everything Karli did, he still tried to talk her down and likely convince her to turn herself in, instead of going in guns blazing. He's a family man, and the people in his community love him. He's been very reluctant to accept the shield, which really just shows his humility. Lastly, even after everything with Isaiah, he came to understand and appreciate everything Isaiah told him, but ultimately disagree with him. Sam is a good man. A stark(pun not intended) contrast to Bucky. Who is still very obviously battling his demons. He has not fully forgiven himself for his past. Not to mention he still fights timid, if he fought like the Winter Soldier, John Walker would have ran away crying.
I'm on the line between being sympathetic towards Isaiah, or to say he's an extremely bitter old man. I get the pain he has inside. He was given a super soldier serum without his consent. He saw his friends killed by this experimental serum. He fought for his country. He freed other prisoners of war(might I add same thing Steve did in WW2. When he disobeyed command to save Bucket and many others). Unlike Steve, he wasn't thanked for his service. He was thrown in prison for 30. While imprisoned, he was a guinea pig for the government. The only reason he was "freed" was because he had to fake his death. He has plenty of reasons to be pissed. But then at the same time he doesn't even want to process that the current country is different than the one he grew up in. Not to mention its likely Hydra that was experimenting on him. And if Steve didn't go in the Ice and was aware, Isaiah would have likely been freed from prison and Steve could have protected him from anyone coming after him. In any case, Isaiah clearly hates the country. So I don't see anyway how his grandson, who clearly loves and respects his grandad, will eventually become the Patriot.
I'm really excited to see Sam's new vibranium tech wings. Shuri probably tweaked it to the point where he can equally hold his own against super soldiers. Also, I'm guessing the hispanic guy will become the next Falcon. As Sam left him the broken wings.
John Walker making his own makeshift shield is going to be funny. Whatever he is using, it ain't Vibranium, thus it will not be the same. He looks like he's addicted to having the mantle of captain america. He's had to state it multiple times.
I'm on the line between being sympathetic towards Isaiah, or to say he's an extremely bitter old man. I get the pain he has inside. He was given a super soldier serum without his consent. He saw his friends killed by this experimental serum. He fought for his country. He freed other prisoners of war(might I add same thing Steve did in WW2. When he disobeyed command to save Bucket and many others). Unlike Steve, he wasn't thanked for his service. He was thrown in prison for 30. While imprisoned, he was a guinea pig for the government. The only reason he was "freed" was because he had to fake his death. He has plenty of reasons to be pissed. But then at the same time he doesn't even want to process that the current country is different than the one he grew up in. Not to mention its likely Hydra that was experimenting on him. And if Steve didn't go in the Ice and was aware, Isaiah would have likely been freed from prison and Steve could have protected him from anyone coming after him. In any case, Isaiah clearly hates the country. So I don't see anyway how his grandson, who clearly loves and respects his grandad, will eventually become the Patriot.
I'm really excited to see Sam's new vibranium tech wings. Shuri probably tweaked it to the point where he can equally hold his own against super soldiers. Also, I'm guessing the hispanic guy will become the next Falcon. As Sam left him the broken wings.
John Walker making his own makeshift shield is going to be funny. Whatever he is using, it ain't Vibranium, thus it will not be the same. He looks like he's addicted to having the mantle of captain america. He's had to state it multiple times.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 5:02 pm to QJenk
quote:
John Walker making his own makeshift shield is going to be funny. Whatever he is using, it ain't Vibranium
He'll eventually get there. That shite really hasn't come off as rare as it seems. And with important people on his side, much will be possible for him.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 5:07 pm to QJenk
quote:
I'm on the line between being sympathetic towards Isaiah, or to say he's an extremely bitter old man. I get the pain he has inside. He was given a super soldier serum without his consent. He saw his friends killed by this experimental serum. He fought for his country. He freed other prisoners of war(might I add same thing Steve did in WW2. When he disobeyed command to save Bucket and many others). Unlike Steve, he wasn't thanked for his service. He was thrown in prison for 30. While imprisoned, he was a guinea pig for the government. The only reason he was "freed" was because he had to fake his death.
And you are on the fence?
Posted on 4/18/21 at 5:40 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
If we're supposed to believe Bradley's backstory, I don't see how he could show up at a final battle. Just wouldn't make sense for this fight that absolutely won't affect him personally to be the one he finally decided to get involved in.
That's a valid point. Maybe he has grown to like Sam and wants to protect him if the fight is going badly. Or you may be right. It was really just wishcasting on my part, but I think it would be a good way for the final action to play out.
I would not go so far to predict that Bradley and Walker would actually team up in any way after the fight. (Sorry Scoob and those of you predicting that).
This post was edited on 4/18/21 at 5:43 pm
Posted on 4/18/21 at 6:01 pm to QJenk
quote:
Not to mention he still fights timid, if he fought like the Winter Soldier, John Walker would have ran away crying.
Glad someone else picked up on this. Def seems like he’s trying not to hurt anyone which is why he’s more on Sam’s level as opposed to being on the Steve/T’Challa level that he used to be on in terms of fighting ability
Posted on 4/18/21 at 6:48 pm to WicKed WayZ
I came here for this very reason. Why have they made the Winter freaking Soldier a bitch? Little girl kicks his arse? Now this guy? It’s as though he was stripped of his super soldier status or something.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:02 pm to QJenk
quote:
Not to mention he still fights timid, if he fought like the Winter Soldier, John Walker would have ran away crying.
Yeah, caught a little of Civil War today and was thinking they've been inconsistent w/ Bucky's super soldier strength, but you're probably right about being timid.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:08 pm to JJ27
quote:
I came here for this very reason. Why have they made the Winter freaking Soldier a bitch? Little girl kicks his arse? Now this guy? It’s as though he was stripped of his super soldier status or something.
It's odd that he holds back against actual super solders. He certainly wasn't holding back against Thanos' army.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:14 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
It's odd that he holds back against actual super solders. He certainly wasn't holding back against Thanos' army.
They're trying to apprehend the super soldiers so they can dismantle their entire network.
Thanos' army was a life or death battle for the entire world.
Kind of different situations.
This post was edited on 4/18/21 at 7:16 pm
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:15 pm to Dr RC
Right, but they can clearly handle more than he's giving them.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:17 pm to imjustafatkid
Yes but he's also trying to not kill or hurt anyone at this point. It's part of his agreement w/the various world governments that agreed to pardon him.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 7:49 pm to moneyg
quote:
So a black guy can be in the armed services...be a part of a very elite group. A black man is capable of being Iron Patriot.
And both are capable of literally fighting for the existence of half the universe.
Yet, a black man will hesitate being Captain America because of American History?
The whole conversation with Isaiah pretty much addressed this. It isn’t that Sam or other black people aren’t physically capable of being Captain America or fighting the Avengers.
It’s that some may reject having a black man fill the role of Captain America - the symbol of the United States and the leader of the Avengers.
If you’re someone like Isaiah - who was experimented on against his will as black soldiers were in real life - you can see why just seeing a couple of black avengers decades later would really make him change his mind.
It’s not unreasonable for Sam to hesitate at the idea either.
Posted on 4/18/21 at 8:09 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Right, but they can clearly handle more than he's giving them.
The "holding back" thing is as good an in universe reason as any. However, I think the real world reason is that any ongoing protagonist in a comic, movie or series has to job to an extent so that the narrative can establish the bona fides of villains and guest stars when they first fight. Usually the ongoing characters come up with a way to prevail in the final battle. We'll see if Bucky handles himself better in the finale.
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