re: GoT S7 E5 "Eastwatch" MAESTERS THREAD

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I would say that John Snow is a master strategist but otherwise lacking as a tactician.

His 1/2 brother Robb Stark was a better Tactician than Strategist.

Tywinn Lannister was a master at both. Truely a remarkable leader.

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He is very good at knowing what they need - seeing the endgame re dragonglass, getting the humans to stand together as well as hand to hand fighting and getting people to rally behind him. But in terms of actual battle planning / commanding / tactics as you said (i was saying leading earlier but see how that may have been the incorrect term) he isn't good - that was my main point. The ones you mentioned - as well as Jaime in my mind at least.

Hopefully at some point he either improves or someone comes in that is better and can help him out

Yes, in hindsight leader was the wrong term to use. Battle command is what i was trying to discuss.

Well Stannis beat the free folk (jon did great holding them off against incredible odds - although it is worth mentioning that he was from an incredibly well fortified and elevated position) and the Knights of the Vale won the Battle of the Bastards. I referenced hardhomme in what you quoted.

He is a good leader - I admit that wasn't the correct term to use - not a great battlefield commander. I don't know what masturbating has to do with anything. He is good at recognizing strategy as someone above said, not good at tactics as a battlefield commander.

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He had a good moment recognizing that the white walkers were coming and that they needed dragonglass - but that wasn't really a big time battle command moment.

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Yes it was, it showed that in the midst of battle where they were completely surprised, he needed to get to the Dragonglass. Part of being a good leader is having a clear head in present danger.

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Still haven't seem him proven to be a consistently good leader / commander in my mind.

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The way he incorporated his defense of the Wall against the Wildlings wasn't good command? Wtf?

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Sorry i was trying to be nice and give him some credit - not everyone makes bad or good decisions every time - he got everyone to fight for their lives and run away and get as many people on the boats as best as they could - the only decision once could make in that scenario and though he did well, it wasn't really a major battle momen

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horseshite, he saw they couldn't win that battle and got all the people out he could, part of being a good general, commander, and leader is knowing when and where to fight your battles, he did just that.

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won in a surprise cavalry charge at the wall

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Uhhhh, are you dense or something? ANY commander would rather have surprise on their side. Ask any General in a war what they would rather do in war, meet the enemy head on with the enemy knowing you're about to attack? Or surprise attack them at high speed from the sides and roll up their army?

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Stannis doesn't seem that impressive either though as he lost at blackwater (granted he was outsmarted with a WMD)

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You just contradicted your own statement.

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then got destroyed after burning his own daughter and is now dead.

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Think about why he got destroyed, he needed to get to Winterfell because winter was definitely there by then, he needed shelter and they got caught in a blizzard. You can't predict the weather and they got beat because of that.

In other words, you really don't know what you're talking about and are just trying to make Jon look bad when all signs point to the contrary. You have no idea about battlefield leadership or command.

Go ahead and come at me with the BotB, too. They not only wanted to get their home back, but they had to or they would suffer the same fate as Stannis did. He could've held out/come up with a different strategy had he known the Knights of the Vale were on their way if Sansa wouldn't have been a conniving cúnt and told him. They could've held off on battle longer but he had no idea that the Vale was behind him because of Sansa so he had no other options.

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And still, Gendry is that only living child, what significance does that have in the current storyline?


Bastards have no claim in reality the Baratheon line died with Robert.

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Jon can legitimize Gendry (as Stannis offered to do to Jon) and restore the House Baratheon.

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He's creating distrust between the starks.

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Yes, but he's still at a disadvantage.

Bran can see everything. He's already demonstrated to both Arya and Sansa that he has "visions." A quick explanation from him would destroy whatever work LF thinks he's doing.

I'm betting the attempt to turn Sansa and Arya against each other will cause LF's death.

I've covered most of that its just a difference of view for Jon.

I'm undetermined on Stannis and those were shooting from the hip comments as i was trying to talk about Jon. Of course every commander would love to have surprise cavalry charge (it has saved Jon twice in the show so its effectiveness is well documented in the show and throughout history). But I apologize and don't remember that far back as to if he knew that the free folk were there and came to help the nights watch or not. Again i wasn't really intending to comment on stannis in this and would have to think on his history to make a good call.

Regarding his defense of the wall - very good job from a well fortified position. That said, he still would have lost without the help from Stannis - so while he did do a good job, he got lucky and saved in the end which is fine.

So then we have the battle of the bastards, which i think was terrible battlefield command and tactis. Fine if other disagree but i just don't see the evidence of him making decisions which helped / won the day.

And then we have this new plan to go north of the wall, which is what instigated my line of thought. Given the various likely scenarios proposed by others for this coming episode, this is also a horrible plan which may result in absolutely disastrous results.

All of these factors lead me to the personal conclusion that Jon isn't a great battlefield commander / tactician / whatever you want to call it. Again outside of Hardhomme, which shows a level fighting head I don't see the impressive decisions made by him to win the day. Also recency bias in that the most two recent indicators (battle of the bastards and new quest north of the wall) influence that conclusion.

Also, not that it matter, but i likely have the same level of idea of this as you or at least as most of the people watching this show.

If he does I'm hoping he tells them "They have the soft hearts of women". No way either of them are going to forget that sentence.

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He was also right about flooding the tunnel at the Wall, but was overruled by Thorne. He's a good leader. Stop masturbating.

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You know, you often make very cogent and good arguments and engage in productive discussion. Then you all but negate the impact of your words by throwing in a gratuitous ad hominin attack.

To paraphrase Cersei: Why do you do that?

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All of these factors lead me to the personal conclusion that Jon isn't a great battlefield commander / tactician / whatever you want to call it. Again outside of Hardhomme, which shows a level fighting head I don't see the impressive decisions made by him to win the day.

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Just stop already.

Who was it that told Aliser to flood the tunnel and freeze it? Who sent Gren & co. into the tunnel to keep the giant from breaking through? Who left Ed in charge at the top of the wall so that he himself (the best fighter of all of them) could go down to the gates and protect Castle Black against the threat that already made it inside?

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Also recency bias in that the most two recent indicators (battle of the bastards and new quest north of the wall) influence that conclusion.

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Recency bias?