re: GoT S7 E5 "Eastwatch" MAESTERS THREAD

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So many houses, great ones, are extinct either functionally or literally

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This bothered me in this episode.

The entire exchange with Randyl Tarly and Tyrion bugged me.

Tarly saying that Cersi was "born here". Well so was Dany.

Tarly saying that Dany "has no ties" to Westeros. WTF? Her family united the 7 kingdoms and literally made the iron throne.

Tyrion saying that "we've already lost 1 great house". We've lost three at least. The Baratheons, The Tyrells, and The Freys (which, maybe Tyrion hasn't heard about). The Arryns and the Tullys are hanging on by a whisker.

I hate inaccurate, hyperbolic, shite like this.

I think the bottom line is that Jon was never really meant to be a top level battlefield tactician.

His qualities are in vision, leadership, personal connection with people and inspiration.

Even as far back as episodes 1 & 2 he was counseling Bran who was watching his first execution, convincing Ned not to kill the Dire wolves by explaining how they paralleled his children, giving Arya Needle (and some VERY basic instructions on it's use), etc.

All through his arc he has been one with the vision to see the worth in people others can't see. In additions to the above, there's been Sam, the Wildlings, etc.

It just means that people sometimes subconsciously give greater weight to more recent results and this may be swaying my overall conclusion as the two most recent indications (BotB and raid north of the wall) are his two most glaring bad decisions.

Yes, its a difference of opinion - i just enjoy discussing these factors of the show a lot more than what I think will happen in the next episode.

I don't think so, a couple people have come around to agree with me in that aspect at least.

Leader was definitely the wrong term to use at the outset - he certainly has a wide range of other skills as the poster above mentioned which are also qualities of good leaders.

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Tyrion saying that "we've already lost 1 great house". We've lost three at least. The Baratheons, The Tyrells, and The Freys (which, maybe Tyrion hasn't heard about).

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I think Tyrion was being specific when he said "in this war". The Baratheons died in another war, the Freys are dead but they didn't die in this war.

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The Freys aren't a great house

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they are because of the strategic location of the twins.

Ya but he is going forward with it and is the one "leading" it at this point and it just doesn't make any sense (but does make for great TV as someone pointed out earlier).

And to that point, if a bunch of nobodies die trying this, whatever, but now you have the king of the north out there people have to go try and help him. Also, I am basing this conclusion off the pretty reasonable chain of events someone posted yesterday and the "next week" previews which show a pretty bad situation for them.

All in all i just view it as a very bad command decision for Jon to go through with this in the manner they are but again, as someone earlier said, it makes for good tv.

- I also think the whole gambit of bringing a whitewalker to Cersei for an armistice is ill advised. Even if shown that there is an army of undead trying to destroy human life. It doesn't fit her character to work together against that enemy and even if she does agree, she will be looking for the best moment to betray them or to gain any advantage.

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they are because of the strategic location of the twins.

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They are very rich, likely richer than the Tullys, but they are not a Lord Paramount.

The same applies to the lords of places like the Arbor, Oldtown, and White Harbor. All incredibly rich, but ultimately owing allegiance and taxes to another house.

From the Game of Thrones Wiki:

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Current Great Houses

House Arryn - rulers of the Vale of Arryn from the castle of the Eyrie. Currently under the control of Petyr Baelish (integrated with the Kingdom of the North).

House Frey - former vassals to House Tully, rulers of the Riverlands from the castle of Riverrun after usurping their positions after the Red Wedding. Walder Frey and all of his sons were murdered by Arya Stark, leaving its lordship uncertain.

House Greyjoy - rulers of the Iron Islands from the castle of Pyke.

House Lannister - the current royal house of the Seven Kingdoms from the Red Keep of King's Landing in the Crownlands and rulers of the Westerlands from the castle of Casterly Rock.

House Stark - rulers of the North from the castle of Winterfell. Recently retook their lands from House Bolton, and currently preparing for the war against the Night King.

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Based on what I read, Tyrion promised LF the lord paramount title. It appears Tywin may not have followed through on that (in light of LF effectively becoming Lord Paramount of the Vale?)

I suppose for the space ~1 year the Freys count as a great house. I'm not sure anyone in Danny's camp would acknowledge the legitimacy of Tywin's grant though.